Congress Catch-All

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heelinhell said:
If I had told you on 12/20/2020 that Trump would attempt to overthrow the duly elected government to avoid leaving office, can I assume your response would have been... ?

uh...no.

Wow.
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"He" didn't try to overthrow the government. He incited a riot. He did virtually nothing to stop the riot for 4 hours and clearly enjoyed the riot... because he's a POS.

Some of the lunatics at the J6 riot likely wanted to overthrow the government, or at least stop certification for some amount of time, but it was a small # and they clearly had no chance of accomplishing their goals if an insurrection was truly one of them.

Most of them, once they got in, walked around, vandalized, stole stuff, etc.
 
superrific said:
the 12th is about election procedures. in context it is clear that it means nobody who can't be elected president can be elected vice president. this is not a difficult question of law. you are right that 22nd is about elections not service, but that doesnt do any work here.
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I appreciate that you have a sound reading of the Constitution in mind as you make these arguments.

But with this Supreme Court, I feel like the entirety of our Constitution is the same as the force which keeps Wile E. Coyote aloft after he runs off the edge of a cliff. It works the way it works until someone draws their attention to it, and then it ceases to work as it has been working.
 
lawtig02 said:
This is so spectacular. I mean, it sucks for federal workers and I’m really legitimately sorry for all of you, but the constant reminders of abject GOP incompetence are just Yum Yum Chefs Kiss GIF by Nick Jonas
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Yep. And fuck 'em - hold them to the original agreement or a hard "no," exactly what they would do if the situation were reversed.

Time to stop fucking around and play by MAGA/Pubs' own rules. The proverbial high road just doesn't work against a large swath of people who don't care.
 
ZenMode said:
"He" didn't try to overthrow the government. He incited a riot. He did virtually nothing to stop the riot for 4 hours and clearly enjoyed the riot... because he's a POS.

Some of the lunatics at the J6 riot likely wanted to overthrow the government, or at least stop certification for some amount of time, but it was a small # and they clearly had no chance of accomplishing their goals, if an insurrection was truly one of them.

Most of them, once they got in, walked around, vandalized, stole stuff, etc.
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This is start to finish bad faith post hoc bullshit and you should feel terrible for even articulating it.

Just because it didn't work as clearly intended doesn't change the intent.
 
StrangePackage said:
This is start to finish bad faith post hoc bullshit and you should feel terrible for even articulating it.

Just because it didn't work as clearly intended doesn't change the intent.
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I'm not going to try to read minds. I feel safe in saying he, because of his years of election fraud lies and getting the crowd wound up that day, likely intended for something bad to happen. His unwillingness to try to stop it is evidence of his intent to cause a riot of some kind of violence.

To say I know he intended to overthrow the government, when he had to know it wasn't going to happen, is a step further than I'm willing to go.

That's not bad faith. That's looking at available evidence and not making assumptions about intent.
 
korgguy1971 said:
Yep. And fuck 'em - hold them to the original agreement or a hard "no," exactly what they would do if the situation were reversed.

Time to stop fucking around and play by MAGA/Pubs' own rules. The proverbial high road just doesn't work against a large swath of people who don't care.
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99% chance Johnson is an alcoholic before this story is finished.
 
ZenMode said:
"He" didn't try to overthrow the government. He incited a riot. He did virtually nothing to stop the riot for 4 hours and clearly enjoyed the riot... because he's a POS.

Some of the lunatics at the J6 riot likely wanted to overthrow the government, or at least stop certification for some amount of time, but it was a small # and they clearly had no chance of accomplishing their goals if an insurrection was truly one of them.

Most of them, once they got in, walked around, vandalized, stole stuff, etc.
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You are conveniently leaving out a lot of what Trump did outside of inciting the riot.
 
ZenMode said:
"He" didn't try to overthrow the government. He incited a riot. He did virtually nothing to stop the riot for 4 hours and clearly enjoyed the riot... because he's a POS.

Some of the lunatics at the J6 riot likely wanted to overthrow the government, or at least stop certification for some amount of time, but it was a small # and they clearly had no chance of accomplishing their goals if an insurrection was truly one of them.

Most of them, once they got in, walked around, vandalized, stole stuff, etc.
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and this ignorance is what frustrates so many on this board.

Obviously, you did not watch the 1/6 committee hearings and you did not read the 1/6 committee report.

The plan to overthrow the government and keep Trump in office began shortly after the election. It was not a spontaneous event that arose following Trump's speech to his MAGA followers on 1/6

I implore you to educate yourself so that you may be taken seriously on this board.
 
ZenMode said:
"He" didn't try to overthrow the government. He incited a riot. He did virtually nothing to stop the riot for 4 hours and clearly enjoyed the riot... because he's a POS.

Some of the lunatics at the J6 riot likely wanted to overthrow the government, or at least stop certification for some amount of time, but it was a small # and they clearly had no chance of accomplishing their goals if an insurrection was truly one of them.

Most of them, once they got in, walked around, vandalized, stole stuff, etc.
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the riot was only because pence didn't do what trump wanted him to do. the plan was for pence to refuse to recognize the electors from several states and throw the election to the house. it was absolutely an attempt at disregarding the electoral results. this is not a matter of reasonable debate and i wont engage with this bs any further.
 
StrangePackage said:
I appreciate that you have a sound reading of the Constitution in mind as you make these arguments.

But with this Supreme Court, I feel like the entirety of our Constitution is the same as the force which keeps Wile E. Coyote aloft after he runs off the edge of a cliff. It works the way it works until someone draws their attention to it, and then it ceases to work as it has been working.
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This is a disturbingly good analogy.
 
superrific said:
the riot was only because pence didn't do what trump wanted him to do. the plan was for pence to refuse to recognize the electors from several states and throw the election to the house. it was absolutely an attempt at disregarding the electoral results. this is not a matter of reasonable debate and i wont engage with this bs any further.
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I don't disagree. His fake electors plot, his phone calls to multiple states to "find votes" and all of his lawsuits were very much an attempt to actually steal an election. My understanding about the Pence situation is that he was trying to get Pence "send it back to the states" based on some misguided beliefs about what some states would do.

Those things can all be true and I can say that I'm not willing to presume to know the thoughts in his mind on that specific day. Those actions could have been one final, spiteful "fuck you" action like a convicted criminal lunging at a judge during sentencing.

I can also say the he personally didn't try to overthrow the government on that day.

Also
ChiliG said:
@ChileG
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. I assume he's referencing the same events.
 
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StrangePackage said:
I appreciate that you have a sound reading of the Constitution in mind as you make these arguments.

But with this Supreme Court, I feel like the entirety of our Constitution is the same as the force which keeps Wile E. Coyote aloft after he runs off the edge of a cliff. It works the way it works until someone draws their attention to it, and then it ceases to work as it has been working.
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haha. youre exaggerating (on purpose) but aren't wrong.

but we have a bit of recent history. the ind state leg theory has a textual hook but runs contrary to established understanding, constitutional purpose, and original intent. the ind state leg theory is pro-gop. but the court rejected it. i think that same dynamic applies here.

what does this court care about? religious "freedoms," admininstrative law, abortions. i have not seen much appetite for disturbing the mechanisms of democracy. gerrymandering case is awful but retained status quo. the insurrection clause case was badly reasoned but there was no good alternative; upholding the co judgment would have opened a huge can of worms. obviously after the immunity decision, all bets are off but all that tells us is that they will breach the constitution to get what they want. it doesn't tell us what they want.

i would not be surprised to see retirements from roberts and/or thomas, alito. i think the immunity decision was at least in part motivated by the panic that a dem would be re-elected, and they would have to choose between sticking around or letting biden appoint their replacements (biden was still nominee). it was obviously a terrible decision. it is exactly what the supreme court shouldn't be doing. it doesn't necessarily predict that they will be in the bag for trump about everything.

but we have to keep last term in mind when assessing, and that makes everything unpredictable in the way you say.
 
If the current reporting on the House GOP’s plan is correct, it will be interesting to see how hardcore MAGAs will vote with no agreement to increase the debt ceiling. Trump’s been pretty adamant about that. Seems like either Johnson and Scalise will be taking a painful L or Trump will.
 
Does President Musk support an increase in the debt ceiling ? That's all that matters...

At this point Musk is Roy Rogers and Trump is Jingles
 
ZenMode said:
I don't disagree. His fake electors plot, his phone calls to multiple states to "find votes" and all of his lawsuits were very much an attempt to actually steal an election. My understanding about the Pence situation is that he was trying to get Pence "send it back to the states" based on some misguided beliefs about what some states would do.

Those things can all be true and I can say that I'm not willing to presume to know the thoughts in his mind on that specific day. Those actions could have been one final, spiteful "fuck you" action like a convicted criminal lunging at a judge during sentencing.

I can also say the he personally didn't try to overthrow the government on that day.

Also. I assume he's referencing the same events.
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all of this can't be true. If the things you mentioned were successful, the government would have been overthrown. I'd argue he tried multiple ways...
 
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