Covid Thread | Pandemic started Five Years Ago

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonman
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies: 241
  • Views: 5K
  • Politics 
i simply dont know what to say to those who trust our government for anything. A government that is controlled entirely by special interest groups thru their prostitute politicians with their insatiable appetites for money and power. Wtf do you numbnuts think there are over 12k lobbyists in DC that pimp out your partys elected officials? Despicable.
 
If I could do it, I would actually force every single Trump voter to watch this once a day for the remainder of their lives. Not that I think most of them would learn, but I would do it anyway. Everyone who thinks they know the story would still benefit from seeing this review video:

 
i simply dont know what to say to those who trust our government for anything. A government that is controlled entirely by special interest groups thru their prostitute politicians with their insatiable appetites for money and power. Wtf do you numbnuts think there are over 12k lobbyists in DC that pimp out your partys elected officials? Despicable.
So who are you lobbying for...oh yeah nobody?
 
i simply dont know what to say to those who trust our government for anything. A government that is controlled entirely by special interest groups thru their prostitute politicians with their insatiable appetites for money and power. Wtf do you numbnuts think there are over 12k lobbyists in DC that pimp out your partys elected officials? Despicable.


 

'He's got it': An oral history of the NBA's COVID-19 shutdown -- and how it changed sports forever​


Visual timeline of the day that changed everything: March 11 [2020]​



IMG_5509.jpeg
IMG_5510.jpeg
IMG_5511.jpeg
 
Germany's spy agency has now put the probability of a lab leak at 80% to 95%. Apparently Merkel suppressed the report but did share it with the CIA.

No, the spy agency put the probability at 80% in 2020. Back when people were saying, "how did this virus become so optimally transmissible" because we hadn't yet seen the virus quintuple its transmissibility from natural random evolution. That was before the DNA evidence about the market had been studied, before it was determined that the virus had been transmitting around the market for a month before any human cases were detected.

What a spy agency said in 2020 has no bearing on what happened.
 
Here's an opinion piece that summarizes some of the evidence about the cover up on the possibility, perhaps probability, of a Lab leak. A number of high-ranking US scientists were discussing the lab leak theory as possible or likely and then came out strongly against the possibility in scientific journals. They also discussed destroying emails and one guy bought a burner phone.

We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives

We have since learned, however, that to promote the appearance of consensus, some officials and scientists hid or understated crucial facts, misled at least one reporter, orchestrated campaigns of supposedly independent voices and even compared notes about how to hide their communications in order to keep the public from hearing the whole story. And as for that Wuhan laboratory’s research, the details that have since emerged show that safety precautions may have been terrifyingly lax.

My question is why would a group of scientists shut down an important scientific question. If it was a lab leak, we need to know, even if just to focus future efforts on improving lab safety.

I can see a few possibilities:

1. Avoid taking the focus off the efforts to save people with anger at China or science generally. That's probably the most generous theory.

2. Avoid exposing their role in the pandemic. Some of these scientists were responsible for funding some of the research in the labs.

3. Avoid upsetting China or the US. Maybe. That doesn't seem like a scientist call as much as their political bosses call. But Trump wasn't too shy about calling it the China virus. Maybe attributing it to China lab practices vs their penchant for shopping near live animals was a bridge too far for Trump. But why would the German and British Prime Ministers participate in the cover-up? Do they care enough about China to not want to upset them or do they care about the US.

I'm not sure what to think. It sounds like a cover-up and I don't like being duped. The effects of painting anyone who considered the lab leak theory as a kook bleed on to this day even as the evidence mounts. At the same time, many of those scientists saved a lot of lives during the Covid effort.
 
It was either a lab leak or it was natural in origin but the anger at China should only be because of their response. They didn’t plan the lab leak. They wouldn’t have planned the natural. They did mislead the world on severity and hoarded supplies while saying it wasn’t a big deal. Those are just facts.

I will also never understand why folks believe an accidental lab leak (hence the word leak) is more racist than blaming the sanitation at wet markets. The 1% of folks who think it was a bioweapon released on purpose are exactly that - 1%.

The mistakes with COVID are too numerous for anyone to list but ultimately it’s the fact that science evolves and knowledge comes along. The fact that people still believe there were no mistakes with complete hindsight are crazy.
 
Here's an opinion piece that summarizes some of the evidence about the cover up on the possibility, perhaps probability, of a Lab leak. A number of high-ranking US scientists were discussing the lab leak theory as possible or likely and then came out strongly against the possibility in scientific journals. They also discussed destroying emails and one guy bought a burner phone.

We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives

We have since learned, however, that to promote the appearance of consensus, some officials and scientists hid or understated crucial facts, misled at least one reporter, orchestrated campaigns of supposedly independent voices and even compared notes about how to hide their communications in order to keep the public from hearing the whole story. And as for that Wuhan laboratory’s research, the details that have since emerged show that safety precautions may have been terrifyingly lax.

My question is why would a group of scientists shut down an important scientific question. If it was a lab leak, we need to know, even if just to focus future efforts on improving lab safety.

I can see a few possibilities:

1. Avoid taking the focus off the efforts to save people with anger at China or science generally. That's probably the most generous theory.

2. Avoid exposing their role in the pandemic. Some of these scientists were responsible for funding some of the research in the labs.

3. Avoid upsetting China or the US. Maybe. That doesn't seem like a scientist call as much as their political bosses call. But Trump wasn't too shy about calling it the China virus. Maybe attributing it to China lab practices vs their penchant for shopping near live animals was a bridge too far for Trump. But why would the German and British Prime Ministers participate in the cover-up? Do they care enough about China to not want to upset them or do they care about the US.

I'm not sure what to think. It sounds like a cover-up and I don't like being duped. The effects of painting anyone who considered the lab leak theory as a kook bleed on to this day even as the evidence mounts. At the same time, many of those scientists saved a lot of lives during the Covid effort.
Zeynep Tufekci is a sociologist with zero training in science, let alone biology. This article is a great example of why people should stay in their fucking lanes. Oh, and not selectively quote private statements out of contexts.

1. On one point, we should all agree: this type of research should not be performed at BST-2 levels. Period. I'm fine with journals like Cell saying, "we will not accept for publication any GoF-adjacent research conducted at too low a biosafety level." I'm fine with the American government passing a law telling journals like Cell they have to have that policy. One wonders how enforceable that would be -- how robust against a researcher just saying, "I did this at BSL-4, I swear -- but that's a question that can get sorted out in the implementation by people with knowledge.

2. But when Zeynep says, "there is no strong scientific evidence of a wet market spread," she's 100% completely wrong. In fact, she even acknowledges that there is such research, but dismisses it as coming from the same small overlapping group of researchers. Yeah, that's an approach that's acceptable method in sociology, but not molecular biology. There's nothing preventing any scientist who disagrees with that science from writing a rebuttal paper. That such papers haven't shown up yet -- to my knowledge at least -- says that the science is sound.

And when it comes to the lab leak theory about Covid, that's all that matters. The science don't lie.

3. The coverup theory is extremely unconvincing to me. Might there have been a scientist or two who was trying to cover his tracks? Sure. Was it a conspiracy between scientists to suppress the truth? Anything's possible -- but unlikely at an academic institution, in my opinion. Scientists are temperamentally ill-disposed toward secrecy. And universities are terrible at covering their tracks.

I will read her links and maybe I will change my mind. But again, this is a scientific question. Either the virus was spreading and mutating in the wet market or it was not. It doesn't matter if Fauci is a duplicitous asshole who was covering for his friends. It's a scientific question.
 
i simply dont know what to say to those who trust our government for anything. A government that is controlled entirely by special interest groups thru their prostitute politicians with their insatiable appetites for money and power. Wtf do you numbnuts think there are over 12k lobbyists in DC that pimp out your partys elected officials? Despicable.
Life is complex. Walking around and thinking everyone is out to get you is exhausting and just not a good use of time.
 
So I read one of Zeynep's links. It was to a House report from 2023 written by people who have no understanding of science or how it works.


For instance, none of this suspicious:

A. "Our main work over the last couple of weeks has been focused on trying to disprove any type of lab theory…" That's precisely how science works. If you think the lab theory is a good candidate, you try to disprove it. If you can't, then the theory should remain viable. It's null hypothesis testing and it's unremarkable. Tens of thousands of scientists in hundreds of fields do the same thing every day. It was also a casual formulation that might not have been intended to be taken literally. We use that language all the time: "I spent all last week doing X" when in fact X was merely a major activity. And here the conversation is between someone I believe to be fluent in English (Anderson) and someone who likely is not (the German).

B. "Prompted by Jeremy Farrah [sic], Tony Fauci, and Francis Collins, Eddie Holmes, Andrew Rambaut, Bob Garry, Ian Lipkin,and myself have been working through much of the (primarily)genetic data to provide agnostic and scientifically informed hypothesis around the origins of the virus." Yeah, that's namedropping. It's what everyone does to get published. Nothing exceptional about it.

C. These two statements, deemed to be contradictory, are not contradictory at all:

"For example, we looked at data from coronaviruses found in other species, such as bats and pangolins, which demonstrated that the features that first appeared uniqueto SARS-CoV-2 were in fact found in other, related viruses" and

"Unfortunately, thenewly available pangolin sequences do not elucidate the origin ofSARS-CoV-2 or refute a lab origin. [T]here is no evidence on present data that the pangolin CoVs are directly related to the COVID-19 epidemic."

Nothing about those two statements is in conflict. The whole point of the first statement is to complement the second one. Recall that the argument was "these viruses have the furin cleavage sites, which are signs of lab manipulation." And the answer is, "nope, these features are common" -- even in viruses that are not connected to Covid-19. Those two statements self-support, yet people who don't understand science will somehow see them as contradictory.

We REALLY REALLY REALLY need to leave science to people who understand it.
 
It was either a lab leak or it was natural in origin but the anger at China should only be because of their response. They didn’t plan the lab leak. They wouldn’t have planned the natural. They did mislead the world on severity and hoarded supplies while saying it wasn’t a big deal. Those are just facts.

I will also never understand why folks believe an accidental lab leak (hence the word leak) is more racist than blaming the sanitation at wet markets. The 1% of folks who think it was a bioweapon released on purpose are exactly that - 1%.

The mistakes with COVID are too numerous for anyone to list but ultimately it’s the fact that science evolves and knowledge comes along. The fact that people still believe there were no mistakes with complete hindsight are crazy.
1. When did China say it wasn't a big deal? I don't know about the hoarding. Maybe. They certainly could have been more transparent. On that, I will agree.

2. I don't think the accidental lab leak theory is more racist than the sanitation. In fact, I think that's why the Chinese didn't cooperate with research requests. If you look at this from the perspective of China's government, the lab leak theory is way better. China wants to project strength, technology, modernity. What better way than to remind the world that it does so much advanced biology work. And oh, if the world is maybe a little bit uncertain whether China has bioweapons, again that's not a bad thing from China's perspective. But the reality was a bit humiliating. Chinese people are not all hyper-technological geniuses who have thrown off the ways of the past. Actually, they get food from wet markets with sanitation standards closer to the 19th century than the 21st.

I do think the lab leak theory is more explosive and fuels a lot more anger to China. Plus, the big point is that authoritarians -- not just the rulers, but the rank-and-file -- always need external actors to blame for all problems. That is, in fact, the essence of right-wing authoritarianism: an enemy must be identified; it must be blamed; it must be lashed out; in fighting it, our civil liberties must yield.

That's the backdrop -- not racism per se but rather the creation of enemies.
 
Back
Top