CURRENT EVENTS July 31-Sept 27

[05C40]

total agree and this is why we shouldn't count children

Link: Youngest States 2023 - Wisevoter

The top 10 states in terms of percentage of the population under age 18 are all deep, deep, RED. Yeah, lets allocation representation in the US House and electoral votes by those eligible to vote, not total population.

 

[Huh?]

Yep. Voting is a right, not a privilege. I don't object to providing ID's for voting, but not at the expense of disenfranchising 34M of my fellow Americans. There have to be (and, in fact, are) alternative methods to verifying identity at polling booths for those without ID.

 

[ZenMode]

here is what the constitution says about the census. I don't see any exclusion of non-citizens. Does anyone else? In fact, I'm pretty sure that it explicitly directs the enumeration to count all "free persons."

according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years,

Of course, that was written in a time when anyone who reached our border was given citizenship.

 

[Callatoroy]

I think the word you're looking for is "right."

in this case they are interchangeable, but ok

 

[Callatoroy]

here is what the constitution says about the census. I don't see any exclusion of non-citizens. Does anyone else? In fact, I'm pretty sure that it explicitly directs the enumeration to count all "free persons."

according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years,

An illegal immigrant wouldn't fit the definition of a free person.

 

[superrific]

Fair. I do not have a full list of all cabinet secretaries. But I think we'd be hard-pressed to find worse ones than these --

• Vance
• Zeldin
• Loeffler
• Bondi (although, if it's possible, a VAST improvement over Gaetz)
• Gabbard
• Vaught
• Rollins
• Lutnick
• Hegseth
• Kennedy
• Noem
• Duffy
• Greer

And that's leaving a LOT of meat on the bone.

I think we have normalized the shitfuckery of Trump 2.0's cabinet. These are the worst of us. I've always said I would rather have a random draw of the 343 million Americans over Trump. I'm now confident I'd take the same gamble for any of the 13 cabinet-level officials listed above. Maybe we have a crackhead or two. That still wouldn't be worse that what calla and Ram have enabled.

I have no real issue with Lutnick except for his visibility. He's the commerce secretary. Eh. Vance and Vought aren't in the cabinet. Obviously the worst of the worst are Zeldin, Noem, Bondi, Hed, and RFK, in no particular order. Probably Gabbard as well.

You're of course correct that somehow America (not "us") have become numb to the shitfuckery of all of this. We should expect excellent cabinet members, not stock noir villains.

 

[superrific]

Of course, that was written in a time when anyone who reached our border was given citizenship.

Of course, this is not true, typical for you. See the Naturalization Act of 1790.

Don't you ever tire of humiliating yourself over and over and over again? It's OK to make a mistake, but when mistakes become your core identity, maybe you should rethink

 

[Zoo_View]

Yep. Voting is a right, not a privilege. I don't object to providing ID's for voting, but not at the expense of disenfranchising 34M of my fellow Americans. There have to be (and, in fact, are) alternative methods to verifying identity at polling booths for those without ID.

Dramatically increase the number of voting precincts and you likely reduce the slim possibility of voter fraud. Why? The precinct poll workers and volunteers are likely your neighbors.

Or, do what Oregon did years ago…..shift to vote by mail. It has an infinitesimal problem with voter fraud.

 

[dcf2]

Of course, that was written in a time when anyone who reached our border was given citizenship.

you mean other than the slaves

 

[Callatoroy]

Yep. Voting is a right, not a privilege. I don't object to providing ID's for voting, but not at the expense of disenfranchising 34M of my fellow Americans. There have to be (and, in fact, are) alternative methods to verifying identity at polling booths for those without ID.

What is your objection to requiring a free ID in 2025? Please don't tell me because people can't get to where ID's could be made? Because that doesn't apply to 34 million people.

 

[Ramrouser]

Ooh oh, I know this one. No realistic alternative because disenfranchisement is the point, but masking that fact with vague statements that are related but not actually relevant (e.g. "Get an ID, you need one to [thing that isn't voting]") while ignoring that valid IDs cost money (actual money or time away from a job/dependents), fraudulent voting is already a crime, and fraud is incredibly rare.

Georgia has six acceptable forms of ID for voting. If a voter does not have one of the six, then the State offers a FREE ID for voting purposes.

 

[superrific]

you mean other than the slaves

Even if you exclude slaves, his claim is still not true. It's amazing to me how people can post shit they obviously don't know without first checking the google, which takes like 15 seconds

 

[superrific]

Georgia has six acceptable forms of ID for voting. If a voter does not have one of the six, then the State offers a FREE ID for voting purposes.

All right. I'm not going to debate the merits of the Georgia law. A Free ID doesn't actually address all the issues, but let's leave that aside for now.

I'm more interested in the reasons why you feel strongly about this. Is it your opinion that there is widespread in-person voting fraud? If so, how does that work. What is the motivation for Jose Martinez to go to a polling place, say his name is Billy Bobbit and take Billy's vote? It's incredibly, incredibly risky, inefficient and ineffective and I can't understand why anyone thinks it goes on.

When I was in high school, I remember a proposal to get a big Xerox machine for student use. It was proposed to be put in the student lounge, but there were some folks concerned that the student lounge was not secure. I didn't think that was an issue, because it seemed to me that the chances of someone stealing the Xerox machine were incredibly low -- it would take multiple people to move it, even more to get it down the steps. You'd need a big truck. And you'd have to do it without making noise that would alert passers-by -- there are always passers-by, even in dead night.

Do you think we should have skipped the Xerox machine because of the possibility that it could have been stolen? There was no possibility of a dead bolt lock for reasons I can't remember, but I'm not sure the door even had a button lock. Do you think we could have protected the machine with a button lock? Would that have been successful or unsuccessful, useful or pointless?

 

[ZenMode]

Of course, this is not true, typical for you. See the Naturalization Act of 1790.

Don't you ever tire of humiliating yourself over and over and over again? It's OK to make a mistake, but when mistakes become your core identity, maybe you should rethink

People were given citizenship before the Naturalization Act. The Naturalization act just created an official, federal process and guidelines.

Of course, things were considerably different then because, due to obvious physical limitations, there weren't millions of people illegally entering and staying in the US and being counted to determine federal representation.

 

[ZenMode]

you mean other than the slaves

Yes. Slaves weren't seeking a life in the US. They were forced to be here and probably didn't have the ability or right to seek citizenship through state courts.

 

[superrific]

People were given citizenship before the Naturalization Act. The Naturalization act just created an official, federal process and guidelines.

It created the only process. Before the constitution, states could recognize citizenship because the federal government was weak. That's why the constitution was written and adopted.

So it is your theory that, in 1791, a person could show up in America and gain citizenship through some other process than provided for in the Naturalization Act? Even to ask the question is to answer it.

And it's also clear that the Framers thought a lot about citizenship. If they had wanted the census to have counted citizens, they would have said so.

 

[TangledUpInBlue06]

Georgia has six acceptable forms of ID for voting. If a voter does not have one of the six, then the State offers a FREE ID for voting purposes.

I applaud states that make free ID available, particularly if they are genuine in their efforts to reduce the burden on voters. I do always wonder how free "free" is, though. The state may not charge, but that doesn't mean there is no cost to the citizen. Can you get one of these by mail? Do you have to travel to an office and, if so, is it open during non-business hours for people that work? Do you need any other documentation that might not be readily available like a birth certificate? Are the free IDs available same-day? Can you get one on election day?

 

[Ramrouser]

All right. I'm not going to debate the merits of the Georgia law. A Free ID doesn't actually address all the issues, but let's leave that aside for now.

I'm more interested in the reasons why you feel strongly about this. Is it your opinion that there is widespread in-person voting fraud? If so, how does that work. What is the motivation for Jose Martinez to go to a polling place, say his name is Billy Bobbit and take Billy's vote? It's incredibly, incredibly risky, inefficient and ineffective and I can't understand why anyone thinks it goes on.

When I was in high school, I remember a proposal to get a big Xerox machine for student use. It was proposed to be put in the student lounge, but there were some folks concerned that the student lounge was not secure. I didn't think that was an issue, because it seemed to me that the chances of someone stealing the Xerox machine were incredibly low -- it would take multiple people to move it, even more to get it down the steps. You'd need a big truck. And you'd have to do it without making noise that would alert passers-by -- there are always passers-by, even in dead night.

Do you think we should have skipped the Xerox machine because of the possibility that it could have been stolen? There was no possibility of a dead bolt lock for reasons I can't remember, but I'm not sure the door even had a button lock. Do you think we could have protected the machine with a button lock? Would that have been successful or unsuccessful, useful or pointless?

First, I see little to no burden in presenting an ID to vote in an election. We show ID for almost everything we do so why exempt voting? You can't enter a Federal Courthouse without presenting a valid ID and surrendering your phone.

Second, requiring ID adds confidence in voting in elections. You may dismiss the R's concerns in the voting in 2020 but the concerns were real and actually discouraged hundreds of thousands of citizens to not vote in the Senate run off the election in January 2021. Isn't the goal to encourage more, not less, people to vote? Georgia's new voting laws helped re establish confidence in voting in elections - the law has received almost universal praise in the State.

Third, deterrence. Requiring a valid ID will discourage any individuals or groups even thinking about committing voter fraud.

I'm not for making people jump through meaningless hoops just for the fun of it, but I don't think requiring an ID to vote falls into that category.

 

[Ramrouser]

I applaud states that make free ID available, particularly if they are genuine in their efforts to reduce the burden on voters. I do always wonder how free "free" is, though. The state may not charge, but that doesn't mean there is no cost to the citizen. Can you get one of these by mail? Do you have to travel to an office and, if so, is it open during non-business hours for people that work? Do you need any other documentation that might not be readily available like a birth certificate? Are the free IDs available same-day? Can you get one on election day?

According to the Georgia Secretary of State's office, a person may obtain the voting ID through any County Registrar's office or any Department of Driver Services. No birth certificate is required. All that is needed is documentation showing the name and address of the applicant - i.e. a utility bill. You can also obtain an ID by simply showing you were a previous voter and on the voting rolls.

Your remaining inquiries were not specifically addressed on the SOS's website. Obtaining the ID on election day would be useless since Georgia does not have election day registration. I can't imagine you wouldn't be able to obtain the ID the same day since that service is available for driver's licenses.

 

[lawtig02]

An illegal immigrant wouldn't fit the definition of a free person.

1. That's not true even as a matter of simple language.
2. Why are you still ignoring the 14th Amendment?
3. Your (and Trump's) position is also completely contrary to a number of Supreme Court decisions over the years that have resolved this question definitively.