Fairly sure that the millennium long feuds between the various nationalities strewn across Europe by the wars inspire hate for each other with a fervor unmatched by anyone in the US outside of White Christian Nationalists. Poles in Germany, Germans in Poland, Russians anywhere not to mention all the vestiges of people like the Basques and you got some long term mad going on.
“Eat the Rich” memes spread, but is it a political movement?
- Thread starter nycfan
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4heels4evr
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most folk I know do not do IT for the money unless you are talking about whores and drug dealers
Paine
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It wasn’t too long ago that a large percentage of chip manufacturing took place in the United States. That number has declined from about 37% of chips sold globally in 1990 to 12% in 2019. The original offshoring of these jobs took place under neoliberalism, which I think you’re a proponent of if I remember your past posts correctly.
Your second bullet point is the most important. Direct economic incentive is what drives this industry. Obviously, legislation must be passed in order for these changes to take place. This is a modern country with a fairly modern economy.
The most famous examples of left wing populists in the U.S. are AOC and Bernie Sanders. Do you think people of this ilk would not support legislation that reshores certain domestic industries? That’s kind of their whole brand, so that would be weird if they didn’t.
I’m not a policy expert, but I know that there are a plethora of ways to spur domestic chip manufacturing that don’t involve no-strings-attached giveaways to companies that were already massively profitable and still spending large portions of their money on stock buybacks and executive salary packages.
A populist movement would force these industries to invest in America and Americans. If you think it’s Lenin on one side and Hitler on the other with no daylight in between when it comes to populism, I really don’t know what to tell you.
lawtig02
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Semiconductor bill unites Sanders, the right — in opposition
A bill to boost semiconductor production in the United States has managed to do nearly the unthinkable — unite Sen. Bernie Sanders and the tea party.
apnews.com
A bill to boost semiconductor production in the United States has managed to do nearly the unthinkable — unite the democratic socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders and the fiscally conservative right.
The bill making its way through the Senate is a top priority of the Biden administration. It would add about $79 billion to the deficit over 10 years, mostly as a result of new grants and tax breaks that would subsidize the cost that computer chip manufacturers incur when building or expanding chip plants in the United States.
Supporters say that countries all over the world are spending billons of dollars to lure chipmakers. The U.S. must do the same or risk losing a secure supply of the semiconductors that power the nation’s automobiles, computers, appliances and some of the military’s most advanced weapons systems.
Sanders, I-Vt., and a wide range of conservative lawmakers, think tanks and media outlets have a different take. To them, it’s “corporate welfare.” It’s just the latest example of how spending taxpayer dollars to help the private sector can scramble the usual partisan lines, creating allies on the left and right who agree on little else. They are positioning themselves as defenders of the little guy against powerful interest groups lining up at the public trough.
ChileG
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You must have really hated Trump’s first term then. It’s curious why you would vote for him again given that he is promising more of the same in his second term.
superrific
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there is no way for average working people to develop a semiconductor mfg policy. 0%. i don't think you understand why the chip fab business went abroad, and if you don't, what chance does a starbucks barista have? lack of investment in chip mfg was not because of "immediate profit motives."
have you ever been to nyc? when you go, try something. go to 32nd st & 6th avenue. they have the best korean food there. in fact, most of the korean food in manhattan is there. if you prefer south indian food, you can walk a few more blocks to 28th and lex. north indian food is found on 6th between first and second. of course, chinese and vietnamese food are found in chinatown. there's a little tokyo in the east village (or used to be) where there is good and affordable sushi. and so on. these restaurants could locate anywhere, but they choose to locate right next to the competition. i used to puzzle as to why, until i read about geographical clustering.
Clusters and the New Economics of Competition
Paradoxically, the enduring competitive advantages in a global economy lie increasingly in local things—knowledge, relationships, and motivation that distant rivals cannot match.
hbr.org
Today’s economic map of the world is dominated by what I call clusters: critical masses—in one place—of unusual competitive success in particular fields. Clusters are a striking feature of virtually every national, regional, state, and even metropolitan economy, especially in more economically advanced nations. Silicon Valley and Hollywood may be the world’s best-known clusters. Clusters are not unique, however; they are highly typical—and therein lies a paradox: the enduring competitive advantages in a global economy lie increasingly in local things—knowledge, relationships, motivation—that distant rivals cannot match.
the chip fab business is very much about clustering. if you want to know why we can talk about that maybe, esp if we have anyone with hardware fab experience who can add their thoughts. not in this post. the point here is that there's way, way, way more to it than just having a populist policy.
populism has very few economic successes to point to, and lots of economic disasters, like peronism. thats not a coincidence.
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Hard to fathom just how much a billion dollars is and just how many muti billionaires there are in this country.
Takes a ton of poverty to amass that much. F'd up society we allow
Takes a ton of poverty to amass that much. F'd up society we allow
Paine
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Why are you quoting this like I’m not aware of his position on that piece of legislation? I talked about left-wing opposition to CHIPs in an earlier post.Semiconductor bill unites Sanders, the right — in opposition
A bill to boost semiconductor production in the United States has managed to do nearly the unthinkable — unite Sen. Bernie Sanders and the tea party.
A bill to boost semiconductor production in the United States has managed to do nearly the unthinkable — unite the democratic socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders and the fiscally conservative right.
The bill making its way through the Senate is a top priority of the Biden administration. It would add about $79 billion to the deficit over 10 years, mostly as a result of new grants and tax breaks that would subsidize the cost that computer chip manufacturers incur when building or expanding chip plants in the United States.
Supporters say that countries all over the world are spending billons of dollars to lure chipmakers. The U.S. must do the same or risk losing a secure supply of the semiconductors that power the nation’s automobiles, computers, appliances and some of the military’s most advanced weapons systems.
Sanders, I-Vt., and a wide range of conservative lawmakers, think tanks and media outlets have a different take. To them, it’s “corporate welfare.” It’s just the latest example of how spending taxpayer dollars to help the private sector can scramble the usual partisan lines, creating allies on the left and right who agree on little else. They are positioning themselves as defenders of the little guy against powerful interest groups lining up at the public trough.
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You kind of take the same approach with "neoliberals" that you disparage them for with populists. Routinely, you've devolved into acting as if the majority of the board is simply too arrogant or dumb to understand the world and what got us here.
If you think that particular approach has been so damaging as to result in the revolt of the working class against their mor natural allies, do you expect it to be successful here?
Do you not think that your particular level of frustration with us isn't precisely what we've experienced with the American Right for at least 2 decades now?
As to my own personal perspective, I lived through NAFTA as a young teen with an entire family of working class people who worked in manufacturing. You are correct that they all hated NAFTA and what it would mean. What you leave out is that none of them....absolutely zero were willing to admit that American workers might be part of the issue. American workers are also American consumers. None of them think they are the problem when they buy cheap shit from Walmart or Temu. They didn't think that back in 1993 and they don't think it now. They think everyone else should buy American and pay them wages not justified anywhere else in the world for a lesser work ethic and inferior products.
That, my friend, is the American worker. Those are our people. It's unfortunate, but it is true. We simply as a society do not want to work but expect others to compensate us at unreasonable levels while we spend our own money frugally on cheap imports.
When you can figure out a way to square that circle, i know that I will be a lot more open to populism writ large.
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Paine
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Cool.
superrific
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sometimes posts aren't only addressed to the specific speaker being replied to. a lot of people read threads. they might not be aware of bernie's position.
lawtig02
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You suggested left-wing populists might prefer something different than the CHIPS Act. So what is it? What did they propose? What will they propose? And how will it bring chips manufacturing back to the US?
It's easy to watch the World Series of Poker on TV and take cheap shots at the people sitting at the table. At some point, your ideas have to be serious enough to get a seat in the game.
superrific
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there are jobs that get offshored. that's not what happened in semiconductors. american companies were outcompeted. that's because the asians developed an industrial policy aimed at owning the chip fab industry and that is what they did. and americans were by land large ok with that because the real money is in chip design.
meanwhile, tsm is the world's biggest semiconductor fab company in the world. they are based in taiwan. there is nothing that could lure them away. their business depends on being in taiwan. they can set up fab plants elsewhere, but there is a whole system in place to support what tsm needs. that's also why the suppliers to chip fabs -- i.e. the chip fab equipment companies -- are in china. i had stock in applied materials back in the 00s and i followed that company. it moved to china. it didn't do so because of lower wages. it did so because it needed to be part of the chinese fab ecosystem.
the problem with populist economic policy, as you've laid it out, is that the world is simply too complex. you are way above average in terms of your information and yet you are incompetent to make semiconductor industrial policy. that's not an attack on you. it's that semiconductor manufacturing is an extremely complex business that requires far, far more expertise than a populist system could ever produce.
p.s. as an aside, chip manufacturing is crazy. they are making chips with 3 nm transistors. there are a million nm in a miilimeter. that is so, so small.
3 nm process - Wikipedia
Semiconductor Processing: Deposition
HORIBA offer a number of product solutions for Atomic Layer Deposition (ALD), Chemical Vapor Deposition (CVD) and Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD).
www.horiba.com
Callatoroy
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Not disputing that but that's different than all belonging to the same country. We resemble a more civilized and less violent, more educated / industrialized syria or iraq with all their factions of people.
Paine
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Who is the arbiter of whether an idea is “serious enough” to warrant a seat at the table?
lawtig02
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At some point, it's whether you have a seat at the table.
Paine
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There are plenty of incompetent people with a seat at the table right now. They didn’t get there because their ideas were more “serious.”
lawtig02
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Ok, then back to the question you didn't answer. You suggested left-wing populists might prefer something different than the CHIPS Act. So what is it? What did they propose? What will they propose? And how will it bring chips manufacturing back to the US?
Your reading comprehension is off or something. The European countries are not nearly so homogenous as you're suggesting because of how wars have shifted people and/or borderlines. No one in the US has an ancestral homeland in a geographic area of the country other than the native Americans still left in place equal to the connections to place and lands that the Europeans have or the equivalent resentments over conquests and centuries of warfare.
The only real equivalent is between us , Syria and Iraq is that a lot of people are tired of rich white Christians' BS.