FAFO

[BlueSteel]

For many of them, their religious leaders have presented Trump as a special gift from God. To some he’s an imperfect vessel. To the truly delusional he is a nearly perfect person. In either case, they’ve allowed their religious beliefs to be so tied with Trump that it is almost impossible to ever admit that they were wrong about him without causing a crisis in their belief structure.

And for others they just can’t allow themselves to believe that the liberals might be right. That also goes back to the religious aspect as they can’t admit to themselves that the liberal churches were right about Trump.

But yeah, definitely not a cult.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

a religious freak will never admit they are wrong. i warned my family at gatherings that jim and tammy faye bakker were nothing but fake greedy con artists. I was cast aside and almost stoned to death by them. when the shit hit the fan not one single apology from any of them. i rubbed it in their faces hardcore because thats just how i roll when i sense emotional weaknesses.

I asked my brother if my mom would have been a MAGA. She died in her 60's in 2009. My brother was horrified I asked that question and said that my mom valued character way too much.

The reason I questioned it was because of the exact thing you mentioned. She would watch the Bakkers and seemed undeterred when we questioned their authenticity (before the scandal).

But I think my brother is correct. It is a stretch to go directly from them to Trump. My dad died Thanksgiving week in 2016. He hated Trump and was disgusted by his election. So my mom would have had that to counterweight any religious based impulse.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

exactly right.

the "migrant caravans" funded by the dems and soros and all of that nonsense were always just blatantly racist, fear-mongering fantasy.

but of course vanilla ISIS / Y'allQaeda buys it all hook, line and sinker.

there are some folks from honduras who live in my parents neighborhood who are a perfect example of this nonsense. they aren't citizens, i guess maybe they're green card holders? they STILL have a damn campaign sign in their yard with the attempted PA assassination photo and "vote republican, save america" on it.

absolute insanity. i hope they get deported.

I wonder if some of that is an attempt to please MAGA so that they won't get deported. It won't work but maybe worth a try.

That is why I am skeptical of some of the stories of people who voted for Trump and still support Trump after having a loved one deported. Some of them are certainly trying to bargain by saying that they still support Trump. "Please bring my spouse back. I am a Trump supporter!"

 

[4thgenheel]

I wonder if some of that is an attempt to please MAGA so that they won't get deported. It won't work but maybe worth a try.

That is why I am skeptical of some of the stories of people who voted for Trump and still support Trump after having a loved one deported. Some of them are certainly trying to bargain by saying that they still support Trump. "Please bring my spouse back. I am a Trump supporter!"

i'm sure you're right about some people trying that strategy but not these folks.

the husband and sons work in construction together and my parents and some of our business partners and our church have used them for quite a few things.

they're right wing idiots. probably converted to maga by their white construction buddies. they all drive ridiculous jacked up trucks.

i genuinely hope that they FAFO.

 

[superrific]

Agree . And the fact that the Dems allowed that narrative to root and grow without sufficiently quashing it is yet another example of why we’re in the mess we’re in today. Dem messaging is abysmal.

It's not Dems fault for not "quashing" ideas or narratives. I mean, how do you propose to do that exactly? Tell people it isn't true? How well has that worked in the past.

We've been trying for a century to quash the ideas written into the "Elders of Zion" hoax, and we don't seem to be all that effective in doing so. We have neo-Nazis in the US. Hell, Germany has neo-Nazis, or their equivalent.

When people are motivated to believe something, especially when that thing absolves them of responsibility for their past decisions, it's hard to quash that.

 

[farce©]

They understand that Santa and the Easter bunny are myth, yet they believe in a mythical being with no beginning and no end, that created the universe, implanted his son into a virgin human women. And on and on... they will believe anything and they are trained to believe in kings.

Of course they believe the con man is a diety, that's a story as old as civilization.

 

[BlueSteel]

It's not Dems fault for not "quashing" ideas or narratives. I mean, how do you propose to do that exactly? Tell people it isn't true? How well has that worked in the past.

We've been trying for a century to quash the ideas written into the "Elders of Zion" hoax, and we don't seem to be all that effective in doing so. We have neo-Nazis in the US. Hell, Germany has neo-Nazis, or their equivalent.

When people are motivated to believe something, especially when that thing absolves them of responsibility for their past decisions, it's hard to quash that.

Completely disagree. It is absolutely the Dems fault for not proving beyond reasonable doubt that the MAGA narratives are complete and total BS—which everyone in the educated world knows they are. How do I "propose to do that exactly - tell people it isn't true?" YES. EXACTLY THAT. SCREAM IT, like they do on Fox News. Pound the damn table with the truth until it breaks.

It's time to stop priding ourselves on taking the high road, assuming the truth will magically bubble to the surface, when there's this barrier called the right-wing media that won't let that happen. In the age of misinformation, it's time to start fighting fire with fire.

 

[TarSpiel]

The idea of illegal Latinos and Hispanics coming here to ALWAYS vote for the Democrats was total BS. Those folks HATE the LGBTQ and they HATE abortion rights AND they're hardcore Christians - many are Catholic - and we know how strict that denomination is on those social issues. Those folks are always going to be automatic Religious right-wing voters, if and when they're eligible to vote legally. The concept of Hillary et.al. encouraging illegals to cross the southern border so they could "get their vote" was totally bogus and misguided. First of all, they can't/couldn't vote, as they weren't legal and registered to vote. And secondly, once they get "legal" and registered they're going to vote right wing because "reasons".

When you say "those folks" are you referring to all Latinos?

 

[TarSpiel]

They understand that Santa and the Easter bunny are myth, yet they believe in a mythical being with no beginning and no end, that created the universe, implanted his son into a virgin human women. And on and on... they will believe anything and they are trained to believe in kings.

Of course they believe the con man is a diety, that's a story as old as civilization.

You know that a lot of democrats are religious too, right?

 

[UNCatTech]

You know that a lot of democrats are religious too, right?

Yes. I try very hard to respect people's beliefs. Sometimes it is hard to not believe in something and respect those who do.

I have a lot of respect for those who demonstrate those beliefs, while i struggle with those that seem to believe their belief in a God makes them superior.

I believe it is clear which camp those that believe they are superior and should make decisions for others more often fall into.

 

[TarSpiel]

Yes. I try very hard to respect people's beliefs. Sometimes it is hard to not believe in something and respect those who do.

Well you might start by dialing back your mocking characterizations of those beliefs. It's way more nuanced than just "talking snakes" and "Santa Claus".

Belief in a creator has probably been the default religious belief of humanity, from deep in our evolutionary past, and across culture. To me, it shouldn't be all that challenging at a basic level to have respect for those who share that belief.

 

[Milk and Cookies]

Well you might start by dialing back your mocking characterizations of those beliefs. It's way more nuanced than just "talking snakes" and "Santa Claus".

Hard disagree. In order for society to progress it is imperative that we protect the ability to attack bad ideas in the public square and even mock them if warranted. Not the people but the ideas themselves. And any book making claims of talking snakes, talking donkeys, flat earth, etc. has done more than enough to warrant mocking characterizations of beliefs in its historicity. It doesn't matter how many people believe it or how strongly they believe it. They are ridiculous claims that deserve mocking.

 

[finesse]

You know that a lot of democrats are religious too, right?

Fewer and less likely to be either fundies or evangelicals.

 

[TarSpiel]

Fewer and less likely to be either fundies or evangelicals.

Yet way more likely to be black.

 

[TarSpiel]

And any book making claims of talking snakes, talking donkeys, flat earth, etc. has done more than enough to warrant mocking characterizations of beliefs in its historicity. It doesn't matter how many people believe it or how strongly they believe it. They are ridiculous claims that deserve mocking.

You know that many rabbis and Christian interpreters have read those stories as folktales and allegories that express a moral lesson - rather than actual literal historical events - right?

 

[heelinhell]

Well you might start by dialing back your mocking characterizations of those beliefs. It's way more nuanced than just "talking snakes" and "Santa Claus".

Belief in a creator has probably been the default religious belief of humanity, from deep in our evolutionary past, and across culture. To me, it shouldn't be all that challenging at a basic level to have respect for those who share that belief.

As you know I have great respect for you and your insight/perspective when it comes to religious discussions.

And I can understand and respect the need for those to believe in a creator, but would you agree with me that those beliefs in a creator are closely connected to the belief in an afterlife ?

Put another way, how many who believe in a creator also believe there is no after life ?

 

[duluoz]

Belief in a creator has probably been the default religious belief of humanity, from deep in our evolutionary past, and across culture. To me, it shouldn't be all that challenging at a basic level to have respect for those who share that belief.

Eh. For the most part, belief in a creator, ipso facto, neither commands nor loses my respect. How that belief is carried, and how one wears it day to day — that’s what influences how much respect for them (if any) I’ll have.

But just because all the sheep who ever lived would follow this or that particular shepherd doesn’t mean they’re headed in the right, or *only* direction. Hardly. But listening to many (most?) of them, you’d think that’s the case.

So anything non-scientific being a “default” belief doesn’t win any points in my estimation. The major religions and their creator beliefs are no less subject to interrogation, and therefore potential loss of respect, as something like Scientology or Heaven’s Gate or any of the newer kook cults that come along. The popular religions are just older and more accepted, that’s all.

That doesn’t command my respect unless it’s presented in a worldview that is tolerant and not at odds with their diverse and varied neighbors. Haven’t seen much of that around lately… so when the mocking characterizations arise, that’s where they come from.

 

[TarSpiel]

As you know I have great respect for you and your insight/perspective when it comes to religious discussions.

And I can understand and respect the need for those to believe in a creator, but would you agree with me that those beliefs in a creator are closely connected to the belief in an afterlife ?

Put another way, how many who believe in a creator also believe there is no after life ?

I really don't know. I think in earlier religions, like Hinduism and early Judaism and Greek religion, the afterlife was just a shadowy place (Yam, Sheol, Hades) that everyone went to regardless if you were good or bad. I think early indigenous traditions had a sort of view of an underworld or afterlife too, especially the Australian aborigines. But none of those had a "hell" as a counterpart, they weren't attached to morals or beliefs.

The attachment to morals or beliefs came during the Axial age (500 BC), when Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Zoroastrian and Greek traditions all began to conceive of *two* afterlives, one of the good guys and one for the bad guys. And of course both Christainity and Islam, since they came later, inherited that view.

But I don't think there's any intrinsic connection between belief in a Creator and hope for an afterlife. Lots of Jews throughout history have not believed in an afterlife, and yet they still worship the Creator.

 

[UNCatTech]

Well you might start by dialing back your mocking characterizations of those beliefs. It's way more nuanced than just "talking snakes" and "Santa Claus".

Belief in a creator has probably been the default religious belief of humanity, from deep in our evolutionary past, and across culture. To me, it shouldn't be all that challenging at a basic level to have respect for those who share that belief.

I believe if you read my posting history on the subject I have always been respectful. I do think about those of faith who are not maga loyalist when I post about religion. This specific thread and topic makes that a little more challenging when the basic belief of so many of the magas is that they were ok with Trump's rhetoric and plans as long as it didn't impact them personally.

I've even read and participated in threads you and others have started on the subject. Though you are much more knowledgeable in the area than i will ever be, which leads me to be more of a reader than a participant.

Considering that this is a thread about people's choices and the consequences of those choices, I believe that what people attribute those choices to is open for discussion.

I'm not in the group that is worshipping our current president. In not in the group that has anointed him as an answer to prayer and claim him to be sent by God. Maybe you should direct your ire at those people. You know the ones. Those that tell me my daughter is an abomination. Those that tell me I'm going to hell for not believing as they do. Those that mock unbelievers with disdain.

I'm sorry if my opinion was offensive to you, you are not in the group I was considering when I posted that.

In our current political environment, with our president tweeting like he believes he's Billy Graham reincarnated, I don't believe my lack of faith and non belief are really that concerning. What is concerning is Christianity today reporting on the topic of how many Christian leaders voted for Trump. Or the article from Arizona Christian University where they are clearly proud and taking credit for the Christian vote carrying trump to victory. Or the Pastor that ran for governor of NC for the Republican Party. How does this support for trump demonstrate the love and acceptance that is an overarching theme of most religions?

I wonder who Joel Osteen voted for.

 

[TarSpiel]

But just because all the sheep who ever lived would follow this or that particular shepherd doesn’t mean they’re headed in the right, or *only* direction. Hardly. But listening to many (most?) of them, you’d think that’s the case.

Oh, have you listened to most of them?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on especially the non-western people who believe in a creator. Indigenous religions all over the world, Shinto, Taoism, Hindus, Tengriism, bronze age polytheism, african tribal religion, Mesoamerican tribal religion, etc. You've found all of them to be "sheep" who insist that their understanding of the creator is the *only* true one?