Good faith privately-funded White House ballroom discussion

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Callatoroy said:
Not remotely close. Here are the most obvious consequences:

1. Iran remains in control of the strait where it can extort shipping fees in violation of international maritime laws. That would add to globally inflated oil casts as well as other goods. As well, it can wield that control as a weapon to get what it wants. It effectively gives Iran control of global oil prices and ALL of the ripple effects that entails. Are you willing to give Iran that power?
2. It shows the rest of the world that we don’t have the resolve to finish what we started and weakens our position in the eyes of china and Russia relating to Taiwan, or any other level of aggression they may undertake
3. It gives Iran way more power than any other ME country thereby destabilizing the ME which only adds to long term inflated oil prices and adds to global inflation.
4. Israel will not accept a nuclear Iran under any circumstances so ongoing wars will continue and if we abandon Israel it increases the chances they would use a nuke to ensure Iran can’t.
5. The rest of the ME will undertake nuke development programs because they can’t rely on the US.
6. Our economic health will be influenced by Iran because our economic health is tied to global oil prices.
7. Global terrorism increases because Iran will have vast monetary resources to grow them
8. Iran is in a stronger position to renew its pursuit of nukes because only us and Israel were willing to stop them.

That’s just the beginning. There is no situation where we should allow Iran to “win” because we don’t have the resolve to do what needs to be done.
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So stupid.

1. Don't tell us you give a shit about international maritime laws. If you did, you'd oppose the 186 people killed by American air strikes near South America, not to mention the illegal blockade. Two illegal blockades, actually.

2. As I have explained to you, Iran has no intention of interfering with the strait during peacetime. It is economically irrational.

5. Are you really so silly as to think this war is preventing nuclear proliferation? Hey, remember when Bush talked about the Axis of Evil? that was Iraq, Iran and North Korea. Which one of those has not been invaded or bombed? Which one has nuclear weapons? Thanks to Trump and Putin, nukes will proliferate everywhere.

7. How exactly do you think the US will prevent Iran from developing nukes? When we leave, they will start. Are we going to be keeping our navy chilling out in the gulf forever?

8. "We must have the resolve to do what needs to be done" is exactly the logic that brought us interminable war in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, the idea that Trump alone can commit the US to an endless war is absolute bullshit. He fucked up. We do not have to pay the price indefinitely.

You're going to have to face the fact that your guy is a fucking moron, just like you.
 
lawtig02 said:
Why did Iran not exert that power over the Strait before Trump and Bibi launched this war?
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This man is literally incapable of thinking rationally. Just like with timeouts, he gets an idea in his head and he will not give it up, no matter how obviously wrong it is, no matter how little sense it makes, no matter how many times it has been conclusively demonstrated that he's wrong.
 
Callatoroy said:
lol. Not sure you grasp all the elements in play here.
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I grasp the most important element...this is a war that never should have started with objectives that were never clearly defined and leadership who has absolutely no clue what they are doing. Such an endeavor is destined to fail spectacularly no matter what you may believe to the contrary. There is no action short of leaving the region entirely which would improve the current state of play there.
 
Callatoroy said:
Because the sane world knows Israel’s use is defensive and Iran’s desire is offensive. They likely won’t accept it until they are all dead or their economy and ability to fund their desires is eliminated. It would appear we are making progress on that
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Yes, because obviously Israel never acts aggressively. Oh.

Why are you like this? And the sane world does not agree. It never does. Do you ever wonder why intelligent people don't agree with you about pretty much everything? There are lots of lawyers on this board. One lawyer in particular doesn't know the first thing about law. He's the one who agrees with you.

But calla knows everything better than everyone, like Zen. Such fucking arrogance.
 
wmheel1287 said:
I grasp the most important element...this is a war that never should have started with objectives that were never clearly defined and leadership who has absolutely no clue what they are doing. Such an endeavor is destined to fail spectacularly no matter what you may believe to the contrary. There is no action short of leaving the region entirely which would improve the current state of play there.
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Thank you. That is a much clearer answer than I have given, but is the gist of what I was trying to say.
 
Trump has run into a real adversary that loves to posture as much as he does, with an administration that is no more likely to back down than his does. Tough guy online socisl media threats and barbs should not be how we perform political negotiations. Particularly in war time. So, yeah, getting out is a shitty strategy, and a shitier thing to do to the Iranians who are fighting for their lives for political and social freedom. It still is, likely, the best strategy we have. There is no winning a war big enough to meet the needs Calla hopes for, without better diplomacy than what the US has to offer.
 
Callatoroy said:
Not remotely close. Here are the most obvious consequences:

1. Iran remains in control of the strait where it can extort shipping fees in violation of international maritime laws. That would add to globally inflated oil casts as well as other goods. As well, it can wield that control as a weapon to get what it wants. It effectively gives Iran control of global oil prices and ALL of the ripple effects that entails. Are you willing to give Iran that power?
2. It shows the rest of the world that we don’t have the resolve to finish what we started and weakens our position in the eyes of china and Russia relating to Taiwan, or any other level of aggression they may undertake
3. It gives Iran way more power than any other ME country thereby destabilizing the ME which only adds to long term inflated oil prices and adds to global inflation.
4. Israel will not accept a nuclear Iran under any circumstances so ongoing wars will continue and if we abandon Israel it increases the chances they would use a nuke to ensure Iran can’t.
5. The rest of the ME will undertake nuke development programs because they can’t rely on the US.
6. Our economic health will be influenced by Iran because our economic health is tied to global oil prices.
7. Global terrorism increases because Iran will have vast monetary resources to grow them
8. Iran is in a stronger position to renew its pursuit of nukes because only us and Israel were willing to stop them.

That’s just the beginning. There is no situation where we should allow Iran to “win” because we don’t have the resolve to do what needs to be done.
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Remind me, when was the Strait closed? It’s amazing that we didn’t seem to have any major issues with the Strait until Trump decided to bomb a sovereign country for no damn reason.

The rest of the world already knows Trump doesn’t have the resolve to finish anything. They see it in everything he does. Russia has already shown they don’t care about the U.S.; otherwise, they would have stopped their war by now. At this point, the U.S. can barely help itself, much less Taiwan.

Maybe we should have considered that before bumbling into an attack and making Iran look more powerful.

And as far as Netanyahu goes: stop sending money and weapons to Israel. Let them figure out how to work with their neighbors without constantly escalating tensions across the region.

Maybe everyone having nuclear weapons is where this eventually leads. Then we go back to Mutually Assured Destruction and stop pretending the U.S. is the world’s police.

Trump has already damaged our economy.

And the key point you seem to forget is this: none of this would be in play if Trump had not let Netanyahu push him into attacking Iran instead of negotiating with them.

Two reckless leaders got us into this. Hopefully they are both gone soon, and we can start rebuilding the United States’ reputation around the world.
 
Callatoroy said:
Because the sane world knows Israel’s use is defensive and Iran’s desire is offensive. They likely won’t accept it until they are all dead or their economy and ability to fund their desires is eliminated. It would appear we are making progress on that
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Bullshit. Israel has been expanding and taking land from other people's since their formation.

Israel was pretty offensive in the attacks on Iran. Of course they had their pet dog trump supporting them, as he was told.
 
Callatoroy said:
lol. Not sure you grasp all the elements in play here.
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You clearly don't. You just don't want the republicans looking like the idiots they are in supporting the orange turd. Maybe the republicans should have supported a different candidate, no, it's win at all cost with them. Even up to the point of throwing away all of their principals.
 
wmheel1287 said:
I grasp the most important element...this is a war that never should have started with objectives that were never clearly defined and leadership who has absolutely no clue what they are doing. Such an endeavor is destined to fail spectacularly no matter what you may believe to the contrary. There is no action short of leaving the region entirely which would improve the current state of play there.
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Can’t say im surprised. Just a 180 from each other.
 
UNCatTech said:
Remind me, when was the Strait closed? It’s amazing that we didn’t seem to have any major issues with the Strait until Trump decided to bomb a sovereign country for no damn reason.

The rest of the world already knows Trump doesn’t have the resolve to finish anything. They see it in everything he does. Russia has already shown they don’t care about the U.S.; otherwise, they would have stopped their war by now. At this point, the U.S. can barely help itself, much less Taiwan.

Maybe we should have considered that before bumbling into an attack and making Iran look more powerful.

And as far as Netanyahu goes: stop sending money and weapons to Israel. Let them figure out how to work with their neighbors without constantly escalating tensions across the region.

Maybe everyone having nuclear weapons is where this eventually leads. Then we go back to Mutually Assured Destruction and stop pretending the U.S. is the world’s police.

Trump has already damaged our economy.

And the key point you seem to forget is this: none of this would be in play if Trump had not let Netanyahu push him into attacking Iran instead of negotiating with them.

Two reckless leaders got us into this. Hopefully they are both gone soon, and we can start rebuilding the United States’ reputation around the world.
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Tech, I have no words. Don’t want you to get the idea im blowing you off because I’m not. Just don’t know how to respond to all the over the top rhetoric and the equivocations you are making. If I respond it will just create a waste of time pissing contest. Nothing personal.
 
Callatoroy said:
No. I think the lack of democrat support putts tremendous pressure on him to leave with things only partially done. Im hoping he is determined to finish the job despite the pressure. Even if it costs the midterms. I would rather finish it and lose the midterms than partially finish and win the midterms.
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Finish what?

Iran is twice the size of Texas and has 92 million people.

How many troops do you propose ON THE GROUND in Iran?
 
sringwal said:
Trump has run into a real adversary that loves to posture as much as he does, with an administration that is no more likely to back down than his does. Tough guy online socisl media threats and barbs should not be how we perform political negotiations. Particularly in war time. So, yeah, getting out is a shitty strategy, and a shitier thing to do to the Iranians who are fighting for their lives for political and social freedom. It still is, likely, the best strategy we have. There is no winning a war big enough to meet the needs Calla hopes for, without better diplomacy than what the US has to offer.
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As experts have said. This regime only understands force and power. Diplomacy in anyway we get the minimum of what we have to have is a waste of time. The blockade was a great move, it has brought tremendous pressure without expending munitions or risking lives. Iran is quickly running out of storage capacity which will be disastrous for Iran.
 
Callatoroy said:
My view on this issue doesn’t remotely come from Fox. Fox cant bring itself to acknowledge any mistakes made. There have been several, some critical. Im not debating that. Do those really matter today? They will matter when it’s time for Monday morning qb’ing, but what we do going forward is all that matters right now. Democrats should support finishing the job because not doing so would be a disaster for the country. So if your trump hatred is stronger than all the good for the US and the world finishing the job would do, then not much more we can discuss on this topic.
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Define what “finishing the job” means.

Detail what needs doing to accomplish that.
 
Zoo_View said:
Finish what?

Iran is twice the size of Texas and has 92 million people.

How many troops do you propose ON THE GROUND in Iran?
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Have no idea. They don’t share info with me.
I have been informative on what I believe and why. Your turn to provide your opinion on what should be done going forward.
 
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