GOP & Policies toward/treatment of Transgender & other LGBTQ Americans

[superrific]

In 1993, 50% of Americans did not believe openly gay people should be able to serve in the military.
In 2008 (a mere 15 years later) 75% supported openly gay people serving in the military.
I’d tell women worried about transgenders in their bathrooms what I said to military personnel in 1993 - you’ll get over it.

This. You can do the same thing for women in the military, women in combat, desegregated platoons, etc. etc.

 

[ZenMode]

This is where bad faith comes in. They aren't "uncomfortable." They just want to discriminate. Like Nancy Mace and Sarah McBride. You think that was about Nancy Mace's discomfort or about the cruelty, which is the point of Trumpism.

Oh, so now you are speaking for 43% of women?

Wow...just wow. Talk about loading the dice. It's a good thing I'm the only one arguing in bad faith.

 

[ZenMode]

What is bad? In this thread, I've seen posters imply that women who don't want men in their restroom are prudes or are lying. I've seen posters expressing obvious contempt for females who don't want to compete against men in sports. I've seen the idea of using the restroom that aligns with your biological gender as obsessing over genitals or is the result of transphobia.

Maybe I missed it, not only here but in the liberal media in general, but I see virtually no concern for the side of biological females.

Yes, I'm replying to myself again....

In addition to the bolded section above, I've now been told that women aren't actually uncomfortable, they're just being brainwashed by the political right AND I was just told by @superrific that not one of the 43% of polled women who want to keep trans women out of women...not ONE of them responded because they are uncomfortable...they all just want to discriminte.

 

[lawtig02]

Not sure what you mean, but I'm planning on this being my last post.

Just quoting this for posterity.

 

[ZenMode]

Just quoting this for posterity.

Yeah...I really thought I could get some kind of acknowledgement that there are two sides to a difficult situation.

Ultimately, it seems all I got was a hefty dose of misogyny....maybe cisogyny.

 

[farce©]

Yeah...I really thought I could get some kind of acknowledgement that there are two sides to a difficult situation.

Ultimately, it seems all I got was a hefty dose of misogyny....maybe cisogyny.

I thought you were bowing out of this conversation several pages ago? Just can’t get over your fascination with genitals of trans people, can you?

 

[superrific]

Oh, so now you are speaking for 43% of women?

Wow...just wow. Talk about loading the dice. It's a good thing I'm the only one arguing in bad faith.

I'm not speaking for anyone. It's just that aggregate numbers don't tell you everything. Here, let me explain: Suppose Annie is asked whether trans women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms and she responds in the negative. Here are two possible explanations for that answer:

1. They just don't like anything about trans people and want to restrict their rights and erase their presence.
2. They are terribly upset and insecure about the possibility that there is an XY individual in the bathroom when they are.

Now, both of those are complete explanations for that survey result. All you know is that 43% of women fall into one of these two categories. But of course, #2 is what you're purporting to talk about. You say we're just not respecting their opinions -- opinions that they rarely express anywhere outside of surveys and political stunts, because they rarely experience anything negative with respect to trans people at all. And we say that you are looking at a huge prevalence of category 1 and pretending as if it's category 2.

So now that we know how to distinguish them, we can ask: is group 1 or group 2 larger? My assertion is that category 1 is enormously much larger than category 2. For all the reasons we've already talked about. And if you'd like to give some reason to think otherwise, fine but I have a feeling you're going to have trouble passing the straight face test. And that's really what this whole conversation is about.

 

[finesse]

What the whole conversation should be about is that if we treat peeping toms and voyeurs as such according to existing laws, sexual harassment as such according to law and sexual assault as such, then everybody gets left alone, remedies are about what you did and not who you are so nobody has to care about someone else's sexual identity. If that's not enough privacy, don't go to public facilities.

 

[ZenMode]

I'm not speaking for anyone. It's just that aggregate numbers don't tell you everything. Here, let me explain: Suppose Annie is asked whether trans women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms and she responds in the negative. Here are two possible explanations for that answer:

1. They just don't like anything about trans people and want to restrict their rights and erase their presence.
2. They are terribly upset and insecure about the possibility that there is an XY individual in the bathroom when they are.

Now, both of those are complete explanations for that survey result. All you know is that 43% of women fall into one of these two categories. But of course, #2 is what you're purporting to talk about. You say we're just not respecting their opinions -- opinions that they rarely express anywhere outside of surveys and political stunts, because they rarely experience anything negative with respect to trans people at all. And we say that you are looking at a huge prevalence of category 1 and pretending as if it's category 2.

So now that we know how to distinguish them, we can ask: is group 1 or group 2 larger? My assertion is that category 1 is enormously much larger than category 2. For all the reasons we've already talked about. And if you'd like to give some reason to think otherwise, fine but I have a feeling you're going to have trouble passing the straight face test. And that's really what this whole conversation is about.

You SAY you aren't speaking for anyone and then go on to a) mock those who don't want a strange male in their locker room/shower by referring to their genetic make-up (xy chromosomes), as though THAT is the part of the equation that is concerning and b) double down on the misogyny by again baselessly accusing the 43% as motivated by a desire to discriminate for no real reason - "My assertion is that category 1 is enormously much larger than category."

In other words, all you've really done is restate your previously stated position with a lot more words and a patronizing tone toward me.

Nice work. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[finesse]

Have you considered that the fact that it might just be a minor factor in their discomfort? Just stumbled on this today so it's fresher information than yours.

• People feel anxious when they have to use a public restroom: 44 percent feel anxious when having to use the restroom outside of their home.
• When people are unable to wash their hands, they don’t feel safe: 73 percent of respondents feel unsafe if they can't wash their hands.
• Poor restrooms are a reason people quit their jobs: One in 6 respondents (17%) said they left a job because of a poor restroom.
• People avoid eating or drinking to limit their use of public restrooms (38% of all respondents) and those with children or walking aids are more likely to do so: Nearly 50% of parents who need to bring a baby carrier or child in arms to use the public restroom have avoided eating or drinking to avoid visiting public restroom.
• Respondents consider access to public restrooms when planning social events or travel: 26% of respondents avoided a social event because of concerns about access to public restrooms; that number rises to 39%4 for those who report a phobia or fear of viruses or bacteria. 44% of all respondents plan their travel routes to ensure they have access to restrooms.

https://bsmmag.com/Articles/2024/Daily-Articles/07/Many-Public-Restroom-Users-Express-Anxiety.html

 

[ZenMode]

What the whole conversation should be about is that if we treat peeping toms and voyeurs as such according to existing laws, sexual harassment as such according to law and sexual assault as such, then everybody gets left alone, remedies are about what you did and not who you are so nobody has to care about someone else's sexual identity. If that's not enough privacy, don't go to public facilities.

Right, the conversation you want to have assumes that biological males have an inherent right to play women's sports, use women's restrooms, locker rooms and showers because your only concern is for the feelings and comfort of one side of the equation. That has been my point since page 15. I'm not claiming to have an answer, but the side you disagree with is treated much differently. They're liars, transphobes, obsess over genitals, brainwashed, just want to discriminte etc.

 

[ChileG]

Right, the conversation you want to have assumes that biological males have an inherent right to play women's sports, use women's restrooms, locker rooms and showers because your only concern is for the feelings and comfort of one side of the equation.

Have you said what policy you prefer when it comes to transgendered people?

 

[finesse]

Right, the conversation you want to have assumes that biological males have an inherent right to play women's sports, use women's restrooms, locker rooms and showers because your only concern is for the feelings and comfort of one side of the equation.

Made the statement before that I'm unsure about the sports thing. The only thing I've competed in at national levels have men's, women's and open events. Guess which is most prestigious to win. That's why sports have governing bodies. They have a much better idea of the skills involved and are much better placed o determine what constitutes a level playing field.

The rest? Think about what equal in the eyes of the law means. My suggestion makes what you do the issue and not what you are.

 

[lawtig02]

Have you said what policy you prefer when it comes to transgendered people?

That they don’t exist.

 

[superrific]

You SAY you aren't speaking for anyone and then go on to a) mock those who don't want a strange male in their locker room/shower by referring to their genetic make-up (xy chromosomes), as though THAT is the part of the equation that is concerning and b) double down on the misogyny by again baselessly accusing the 43% as motivated by a desire to discriminate for no real reason - "My assertion is that category 1 is enormously much larger than category."

In other words, all you've really done is restate your previously stated position with a lot more words and a patronizing tone toward me.

Nice work. Thanks for clearing that up.

Is it your contention that the 43% of people who answered that bathroom question in the affirmative do not overlap with the 30% of people who think gay marriages should be invalid and that society should discourage and not tolerate gayness? Because I think the vast majority of the latter group is included within the former group.

The most annoying thing about you is the way you attempt to control the conversation by refusing to consider any information other than what you bring and you want to find relevant. You have yet to articulate any response at all to the obvious point that the same people who hate gay people and hate abortion and hate birth control also hate trans. In your world, these are all distinct phenomena. People hate gay people because reasons, but that has nothing to do with abortion! Or birth control! And certainly not trans issues, which is only about the discomfort of cis women and nothing else!!! Don't pay attention to the fact that the anti-trans campaign and the anti-gay campaigns of the 1980s and 1990s are essentially identical in structure and messaging! They are completely different issues.

In the real world, there is a sizeable set of people who are motivated by hate and bigotry in pretty much everything they do politically. They are the MAGAs. Why is it, do you think, that the politicians who are most vociferously pushing an anti-trans agenda are ALSO the same ones pushing anti-vaxx agenda, anti-gay agenda, and talking about the need to return to the traditional family? Just a coincidence, since these issues have nothing to do with each other? Is that your position? Because my position is that it's all the same, and I'm extremely confident that I'm right because the evidence is overwhelming and all around us.

This is obviously not a genuine conversation. I've made about 10 points that you've refused to answer, asked multiple questions that have been ignored, and all the while you've been churning out replication posts continuing to make the same debunked points over and over again. Hey, ZenMode, if you say a false thing a dozen times, it's still false! Two dozen, even! The biggest number you can imagine!

 

[ZenMode]

Have you said what policy you prefer when it comes to transgendered people?

It depends on the situation. I've heard of transgender people as young as age 4, I believe. Prepubescent children, trans or not, should be allowed to play against each other. Trans men/ cis women can play in any sport they want, at any age,as far as I'm concerned.

If you are talking about trans women, I separate them into two categories. The first category are those who have not received hormone treatments and the second category is those who have. If I ran an athletic organization of any kind, today, I would not allow trans women to compete against females. I realize that hormone treatment can undo a lot of the muscular advantage we see in males over females, but I don't think there is enough of an understanding to allow trans women in any female sport today. I'm open to having my mind changed If significant research shows that hormones truly nullify the known male advantages.

 

[superrific]

"Except that doesn't happen because, as has been explained to you many, many times, they are not men. "

Which is why I said "strange MALES " in the post YOU quoted....you illiterate twat.

"Answer the question: why is this is a problem now, all of a sudden, when trans people have been using the bathrooms of their choice for generations? "

Because you have biological males (trans women) being allowed in more and more cis women's spaces and thanks to social media and politics/DEI there's more awareness, so the issue is being naturally forced into the spotlight.

• Biological males (trans women) playing in girls sports
• Biological males (trans women) in gym locker rooms
• Biological males (trans women) impregnating females in prison
• Biological males (trans women) sexually assaulting girls in public school restrooms
• Biological males (trans women) in the military
• Biological males (trans women) in high level government positions

Biological males in the military and high level government positions is new? What the fuck are you even talking about? Who do you think fought all our wars? Aliens? Good lord, we're talking with a fucking delusional acidhead. Hey, dipshit, biological males have been doing all those things (save sports) for thousands of years.

 

[ZenMode]

Biological males in the military and high level government positions is new? What the fuck are you even talking about? Who do you think fought all our wars? Aliens? Good lord, we're talking with a fucking delusional acidhead. Hey, dipshit, biological males have been doing all those things (save sports) for thousands of years.

I'm using the scientifically and psychologically/socually correct terms for the people we are talking about so there is no confusion.

 

[superrific]

I'm using the scientifically and psychologically correct terms for the people we are talking about so there is no confusion.

No, you are not. You mocked me for using XY, not realizing that is actually the correct terminology. In biology class, they would use symbols but I don't know how to post them.

 

[ZenMode]

No, you are not. You mocked me for using XY, not realizing that is actually the correct terminology. In biology class, they would use symbols but I don't know how to post them.

I mocked you for using XY because we both know that it's not the chromosomes that are distinguishing and visible, and therefore the issue, in a locker room/shower. In my opinion, you using XY was just another attempt at minimizing the feelings of uncomfortableness of cis women.