GOP slouches into the Crazy -IMMIGRATION Edition | Trump Won’t Condemn Bomb Threats in Springfield OH

[SnoopRob]

Never seen it articulated so perfectly his way before.

"The actual beliefs are self-evident: that the suffering of others is a tool, or a toy; that everyone else in the world is a threat or an obstacle or something to wad up and throw away; that even the most abstracted inconveniencing of their own sainted comfort is tantamount to the end of the world."

I really liked the article and even more so liked that very line you quoted.

It makes me wonder if the unifying principle of the MAGA movement is a sense of collective narcissism.

 

[aGDevil2k]

 

[lawtig02]

I really liked the article and even more so liked that very line you quoted.

It makes me wonder if the unifying principle of the MAGA movement is a sense of collective narcissism.

I don’t think it’s narcissism in the clinical sense, although the most prominent MAGAs are almost universally narcissists. I think it’s the intersection of fear and social isolation. Robert Putnam has been all over this for decades now.

Social media, isolation and Trump-style politics are tearing our nation apart

Political polarization in the U.S. has reached a dangerous level, with social media platforms promoting misinformation and distrust, leading to extremism and alienation, and a lack of shared experi…

thehill.com

Harvard Professor Robert Putnam pointed to early warning signs of grudges and grievances silencing talk among Americans in his 2000 book, “Bowling Alone.” He noted declining participation in group activities such as going to church, bowling leagues and scouting. Not every American man has to serve in the military.

As a result, Americans today have fewer shared experiences — across generations, races and social classes. The lack of people getting together is the main driver of our political dysfunction.

 

[superrific]

Harvard Professor Robert Putnam pointed to early warning signs of grudges and grievances silencing talk among Americans in his 2000 book, “Bowling Alone.” He noted declining participation in group activities such as going to church, bowling leagues and scouting. Not every American man has to serve in the military.

As a result, Americans today have fewer shared experiences — across generations, races and social classes. The lack of people getting together is the main driver of our political dysfunction.

I'll give Putnam some due, but it's also true that in the 1970s, disco, grapefruit and bowling leagues were popular. None are now. Was the bowling league that important?

Hasn't the "guys get together, drink beer and bowl" just been replaced by "guys get together at BW3, drink beer, eat some wings, and watch sports on big screen TVs"? Is the former really more pro-community than the latter? And churches -- they are part of the problem, not part of the solution!

 

[aGDevil2k]

Yes when I think of church and scouting, I always think "well those are the places that historically have been super duper diverse and integrated!"

 

[4thgenheel]

Yes when I think of church and scouting, I always think "well those are the places that historically have been super duper diverse and integrated!"

yeah, exactly. those "shared experiences" he refers to were not crossing race and social class very much if at all.

 

[nycfan]

 

[lawtig02]

I'll give Putnam some due, but it's also true that in the 1970s, disco, grapefruit and bowling leagues were popular. None are now. Was the bowling league that important?

Hasn't the "guys get together, drink beer and bowl" just been replaced by "guys get together at BW3, drink beer, eat some wings, and watch sports on big screen TVs"? Is the former really more pro-community than the latter? And churches -- they are part of the problem, not part of the solution!

1. Bowling leagues are a proxy. I don’t think they’ve been replaced by guys drinking beer together at BW3. They’ve been replaced by dads sitting in their home “offices” scratching their balls and playing Grand Theft Auto while casually scrolling porn on the second monitor and ignoring their wife and kids. An exaggeration, but not that much of one.

2. As one who grew up in an extremely church-oriented environment, I’ve come to view the typical church of 40 years ago as far more of a community hub than a theological/political indoctrination center. The loss of that community hub is, in fact, a loss. It became inevitable when the church was co-opted by the Religious Right into an indoctrination center, but that doesn’t diminish the loss of the community hub.

 

[mynameisbond]

Genius. Pure genius.

 

[SnoopRob]

I don’t think it’s narcissism in the clinical sense, although the most prominent MAGAs are almost universally narcissists. I think it’s the intersection of fear and social isolation. Robert Putnam has been all over this for decades now.

Social media, isolation and Trump-style politics are tearing our nation apart

Political polarization in the U.S. has reached a dangerous level, with social media platforms promoting misinformation and distrust, leading to extremism and alienation, and a lack of shared experi…

thehill.com

Harvard Professor Robert Putnam pointed to early warning signs of grudges and grievances silencing talk among Americans in his 2000 book, “Bowling Alone.” He noted declining participation in group activities such as going to church, bowling leagues and scouting. Not every American man has to serve in the military.

As a result, Americans today have fewer shared experiences — across generations, races and social classes. The lack of people getting together is the main driver of our political dysfunction.

I think it is narcissism in the clinical sense as MAGA seems to have the self-centeredness, need for attention/admiration, and insensitivity to others that are the hallmarks of narcissism.

If this were more about social isolation, you'd expect to see this kind of issue across the entire political spectrum. However, you largely see it in MAGA but without large-scale corresponding representations in even "RINO" Pubs, much less true independents and liberals.

Furthermore, MAGA has a significant percentage of its members from those who have higher-than-typical religious service attendance. Those folks shouldn't be driven by social isolation, but we don't see evidence of that in terms of MAGA participation. Conversely, white evangelical churches are seemingly a breeding ground of the MAGA movement.

I think that increasing social isolation is a problem in modern America, particularly in post-COVID America, but I don't think it is the driver of the MAGA movement vis-a-vis other political groups.

 

[TarHeelGrad]

Dumb question, but shouldn't there be a way to trace some of these calls or messages? And what would be the maximum penalty who called in such a threat?

 

[lawtig02]

I think it is narcissism in the clinical sense as MAGA seems to have the self-centeredness, need for attention/admiration, and insensitivity to others that are the hallmarks of narcissism.

If this were more about social isolation, you'd expect to see this kind of issue across the entire political spectrum. However, you largely see it in MAGA but without large-scale corresponding representations in even "RINO" Pubs, much less true independents and liberals.

Furthermore, MAGA has a significant percentage of its members from those who have higher-than-typical religious service attendance. Those folks shouldn't be driven by social isolation, but we don't see evidence of that in terms of MAGA participation. Conversely, white evangelical churches are seemingly a breeding ground of the MAGA movement.

I think that increasing social isolation is a problem in modern America, particularly in post-COVID America, but I don't think it is the driver of the MAGA movement vis-a-vis other political groups.

Yeah, this would be a much better discussion over a beer or two than on a message board, but your point about attendance at religious services is why I highlighted the fear part of the equation. I may be wrong, but my hypothesis is that religious participation in a community oriented around hope and inclusion (especially as it relates to the afterlife) is a social positive, and religious participation in a community oriented around fear and exclusion (especially as it relates to the afterlife) is a social negative. American religion used to skew to the former, but after the conservative culture war takeover that began in the late 1970s, it has been skewing to the latter for a long time now.

 

[superrific]

1. Bowling leagues are a proxy. I don’t think they’ve been replaced by guys drinking beer together at BW3. They’ve been replaced by dads sitting in their home “offices” scratching their balls and playing Grand Theft Auto while casually scrolling porn on the second monitor and ignoring their wife and kids. An exaggeration, but not that much of one.

2. As one who grew up in an extremely church-oriented environment, I’ve come to view the typical church of 40 years ago as far more of a community hub than a theological/political indoctrination center. The loss of that community hub is, in fact, a loss. It became inevitable when the church was co-opted by the Religious Right into an indoctrination center, but that doesn’t diminish the loss of the community hub.

1. You know that how?
2. Are you sure that the church 40 years ago was more of a hub? Or was it just that you were younger and didn't see what you see today? I mean, obviously churches have changed. I will grant that the community hub function was likely more important back then, because they were more required than they are today -- but it's less clear to me that the hub function was really a way of sharing common experiences.

3. There's another activity-based narrative out there. To Putnam's Bowling Alone, there's the book (I can't remember the title now) arguing that the closing of public swimming pools after desegregation is the real proxy narrative for American politics. I find that argument more convincing. Granted, I never grew up with any community at all in my life, so the "loss" doesn't resonate much with me and the "closing the pools" narrative is more observable and thus perhaps it just appeals to me more. Disclaimer aside, though, I consider the "white conservatives retreated into the darkness rather than play with others in the light" narrative to be more explanatory.

 

[superrific]

Yeah, this would be a much better discussion over a beer or two than on a message board, but your point about attendance at religious services is why I highlighted the fear part of the equation. I may be wrong, but my hypothesis is that religious participation in a community oriented around hope and inclusion (especially as it relates to the afterlife) is a social positive, and religious participation in a community oriented around fear and exclusion (especially as it relates to the afterlife) is a social negative. American religion used to skew to the former, but after the conservative culture war takeover that began in the late 1970s, it has been skewing to the latter for a long time now.

How long ago is "used to"? Because the first two centuries of Christianity on this continent had a hell of a lot of fear and exclusion. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that. And of course especially in the South, not so many churches were inclusive.

 

[Scientific Mapp]

That's both totally plausible and also the exact sort of mistake Larry David would make and get himself in hot water.

 

[lawtig02]

How long ago is "used to"? Because the first two centuries of Christianity on this continent had a hell of a lot of fear and exclusion. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and all that. And of course especially in the South, not so many churches were inclusive.

Let’s say from the 1920s to the 1970s in mainline denominations, Catholicism and Judaism. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, and that obviously excludes certain denominations like the SBC, which have, almost by definition, always been oriented around fear and exclusion. For most parts of the country, though, religious participation was a strong net positive in that time period, and it contributed to a lot of social gains. The diminishing of that social network in recent years is not just a religious loss. It’s a societal loss. It’s one of the factors that has contributed to the antagonism of our politics.

 

[finesse]

Yes when I think of church and scouting, I always think "well those are the places that historically have been super duper diverse and integrated!"

In the 60s,someone once said that the most segregated time in America was Sunday morning. I could never think of a counterargument.

 

[Ddseddse]

Let’s say from the 1920s to the 1970s in mainline denominations, Catholicism and Judaism. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, and that obviously excludes certain denominations like the SBC, which have, almost by definition, always been oriented around fear and exclusion. For most parts of the country, though, religious participation was a strong net positive in that time period, and it contributed to a lot of social gains. The diminishing of that social network in recent years is not just a religious loss. It’s a societal loss. It’s one of the factors that has contributed to the antagonism of our politics.

This reminds me of a story. My brother (who's now moved on to Bro culture) went full on evangelical for about a decade. As he was coming out the other side he was like "Bro, you really have read this book! It will change everything for you!" and so I read it an it was one of these Christian authors saying something like "you don't have to hate gay people (even if being gay is a sin)". And I was like "dude, that's the same damn thing any kindly Methodist grandma would have told you decades ago, you dolt" (OK, maybe not in those exact words).

 

[finesse]

Let’s say from the 1920s to the 1970s in mainline denominations, Catholicism and Judaism. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, and that obviously excludes certain denominations like the SBC, which have, almost by definition, always been oriented around fear and exclusion. For most parts of the country, though, religious participation was a strong net positive in that time period, and it contributed to a lot of social gains. The diminishing of that social network in recent years is not just a religious loss. It’s a societal loss. It’s one of the factors that has contributed to the antagonism of our politics.

First of all, the Southern Baptist Convention supported and formally endorsed Roe vs Wade when it passed and there was a moderate wing of the church. My stepfather was one. Otoh, you're mostly correct. When I was eleven, the chairman of the deacons got up and demanded his resignation because he talked too much about n****** on a day the SBC sponsored as Race Relations Day. When a similar thing happened at a different church when I was 14, the KKK signaled their approval by burning a cross in our yard when just my ten year younger sister and I were there.

There's more but , to the point, before this, Protestants, as a whole were politically neutral, did not generally endorse anyone as a church or denomination and stayed away from involvement with anything much more political than zoning around their churches. The antagonism came from them becoming actively involved and mostly over segregation. Since a number of them adhere to a theology that demands that they undermine democracy and establish a theocracy, how can you calmly accept someone whose bottom line is the overthrow of virtually everything we stand for. They declared the war and I'm not too damned inclined to surrender.

 

[Kingpin]

Yes when I think of church and scouting, I always think "well those are the places that historically have been super duper diverse and integrated!"

Well, our church sponsors a Scout troop and it’s amazingly and refreshingly diverse with both girls and boys youth of white, black Hispanic and even several of Asian descent all mixed together. A biracial 15 yo girl was showing me her very impressive Eagle Scout project of building a Composting center for the local elementary school. Nothing at all like my troop of the 1970s (Lilly white Boys)