Harris/Walz Catch-All | Kamala blitz in closing stretch

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Mulberry Heel said:
How, exactly, are Democrats responsible for Trump? I've heard some Trumpers claim this since his election in 2016 and it makes no sense. How could Democrats be responsible for the candidates Republicans choose to support? It certainly wasn't Democrats who "forced" Republican primary voters to choose him in the 2016 GOP primaries over a host of other candidates. Republican primary voters fell over themselves to vote for Dear Leader before he even faced Hillary, so what was motivating them then?
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There are some Democratic positions/policies that, I believe, drive people to Trump. One good example is the perception/fact that some Democrats are soft on crime. Some things are made up by the Right. The claim that the mobs robbing jewelry stores in California are doing so without consequence. That's simply not true, but the Right-wing media has implied that it is. Other things are true. NY's policy of "catch and release" has resulted in suspects/criminals committing more crimes. Police stood by, in at least one Democrat run city, while rioters looted businesses during the George Floyd riots. The Minneapolis City Council President saying that a fear of not being able to call the police, when someone is breaking into your house, "comes from a place of privilege". Just my opinion, but that last position, that being able to call police for help when your home is being broken into, is the beginning of where the Democratic Party goes to die.
 
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ZenMode said:
There are some Democratic positions/policies that, I believe, drove people to Trump. One good example is the perception/fact that Democrats are soft on crime. Some things are made up by the Right. The claim that the mobs robbing jewelry stores in California are doing so without consequence. That's simply not true, but the Right-wing media has implied that it is. Other things are true. NY's policy of "catch and release" has resulted in suspects/criminlals committing more crimes. Police stood by, in at least one Democrat run city, while rioters looted businesses during the George Floyd riots. The Minneapolis City Council President saying that a fear of not being able to call the police, when someone is breaking into your house, "comes from a place of privilege".
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Republicans have been claiming that Democrats are "soft on crime" long before Trump came along, or before the George Floyd protests. That doesn't justify voting for Trump, and it certainly isn't anything new for Republicans to claim. Republican candidates have been claiming that Democrats are soft on crime since at least Richard Nixon in 1968. It also doesn't explain, as I noted, why Republicans were so eager to vote for Trump in the 2016 GOP primaries over a host of other GOP candidates. Instead of blaming Democrats, maybe Trump voters should take some responsibility for their vote and just admit that they like the guy and his positions, including those which led Hillary to accurately describe some of his supporters as deplorables.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Republicans have been claiming that Democrats are "soft on crime" long before Trump came along, or before the George Floyd protests. That doesn't justify voting for Trump, and it certainly isn't anything new for Republicans to claim. It also doesn't explain, as I noted, why Republicans were so eager to vote for Trump in the 2016 GOP primaries over a host of other GOP candidates. Instead of blaming Democrats, maybe Trump voters should take some responsibility for their vote and just admit that they like the guy and his positions, including those which led Hillary to accurately describe some of his supporters as deplorables.
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The question of why Trump became so popular is a good question. I have an opinion, but that question is secondary to the question of Democratic policies/positions that would drive people to Trump.

Do you see how the things I mentioned, not conjecture but actual known events, would be very concerning to people?
 
ZenMode said:
The question of why Trump became so popular is a good question. I have an opinion, but that question is secondary to the question of Democratic policies/positions that would drive people to Trump.

Do you see how the things I mentioned, not conjecture but actual known events, would be very concerning to people?
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Do I believe that the things you mentioned are why people voted for Trump? No, I don't, and given what we know about Trump (and knew as early as 2016) it does not justify voting for Trump over Hillary. You can argue that the crime issue somehow made the difference for Trump, my argument is that those people would have voted for Trump anyway, and if not for the "soft on crime" issue they would simply have found another reason to vote for him. And that doesn't explain how Democrats are responsible for Trump's election. The people who are responsible for Trump's election are Republican voters for nominating him and then voting for him, twice. It's not the Democratic Party's fault that Trump was elected in 2016, or that he nearly won again four years later.
 
ZenMode said:
There are some Democratic positions/policies that, I believe, drive people to Trump. One good example is the perception/fact that some Democrats are soft on crime. Some things are made up by the Right. The claim that the mobs robbing jewelry stores in California are doing so without consequence. That's simply not true, but the Right-wing media has implied that it is. Other things are true. NY's policy of "catch and release" has resulted in suspects/criminals committing more crimes. Police stood by, in at least one Democrat run city, while rioters looted businesses during the George Floyd riots. The Minneapolis City Council President saying that a fear of not being able to call the police, when someone is breaking into your house, "comes from a place of privilege". Just my opinion, but that last position, that being able to call police for help when your home is being broken into, is the beginning of where the Democratic Party goes to die.
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Democrats look for alternatives to incarceration. We have the largest jail/prison population in the world. It costs taxpayers money, and largely keeps us less safe than other developed countries.

It makes dumb people feel safe to think that “criminals” are “in jail” instead of roaming around their communities. Republicans exploit that fear. They know that the average person doesn’t think about things like the school-to-prison pipeline, racial discrimination in policing policies, criminal recidivism, etc.

Bottom line is that Republicans always cater to people’s fears and base instincts, rather than seeking actual solutions to difficult and cerebral issues.

This isn’t Dems fault. Nor is there much Dems can do about it.
 
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Mulberry Heel said:
Do I believe that the things you mentioned are why people voted for Trump? No, I don't, and given what we know about Trump (and knew as early as 2016) it does not justify voting for Trump over Hillary. You can argue that the crime issue somehow made the difference for Trump, my argument is that those people would have voted for Trump anyway, and if not for the "soft on crime" issue they would simply have found another reason to vote for him. And that doesn't explain how Democrats are responsible for Trump's election. The people who are responsible for Trump's election are Republican voters for nominating him and then voting for him, twice. It's not the Democratic Party's fault that Trump was elected in 2016, or that he nearly won again four years later.
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So, the original question was whether or not Democrats harbor and responsibility for the rise of Trump. The implication by Snoop was no, Dems have no responsibility. I pointed out that there is some actual basis for the belief that Dems are soft on crime... and a couple were pretty substantial examples..... one bordering on crazy.

That was just one example. I have others. There aren't 72 million nut cases like MTG/Lindell in the country. There are a lot of reasonable, sane people who voted for Trump and it very likely wasn't because they saw him as a great choice or even a good choice, any more than the 82 million Biden voters were voting FOR Biden because he was such a great candidate. Clearly he wasn't.
 
ZenMode said:
So, the original question was whether or not Democrats harbor and responsibility for the rise of Trump. The implication by Snoop was no, Dems have no responsibility. I pointed out that there is some actual basis for the belief that Dems are soft on crime... and a couple were pretty substantial examples..... one bordering on crazy.

That was just one example. I have others. There aren't 72 million nut cases like MTG/Lindell in the country. There are a lot of reasonable, sane people who voted for Trump and it very likely wasn't because they saw him as a great choice or even a good choice, any more than the 82 million Biden voters were voting FOR Biden because he was such a great candidate. Clearly he wasn't.
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The argument that I've heard from many Republicans since 2016 is that they can't really be blamed for voting for Trump, or be held responsible for his election, because the Democrats "gave them no choice." Frankly that is an abdication of personal responsibility for their choices. No one "forced" Republican voters to vote for Trump, they took that choice on their own, and they are responsible for it. And many of them did so twice, and are going to do so for a third time this year. You have also continued to avoid the question of why so many Republican primary voters chose Trump over other Republican candidates - were all those other Republican candidates also "soft on crime"? You seem to have a fixation on that one issue, which I believe is greatly exaggerated as a reason for voting for Trump. And at any rate how one can justify voting for a man who is himself repeatedly in trouble with the law and supported an insurrection against the government and is now a convicted felon as the "law and order" candidate strikes me as absurd. The responsibility for the election of Donald Trump in 2016 and near reelection in 2020 rests with the people who voted for him, not with those who warned about him and worked to defeat his election and who voted against him.
 
ZenMode said:
I didn't spend any time, at the time it happened, trying to dig into and understand what she was saying. I really couldn't care less. I was just referencing a situation that came to mind and would be easily recognizable based on the term "deplorables".

It sounds to me like you are putting full blame for Trump's success on the "deplorables" and no responsibility on Democrats (not just politicians)?
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If the worst thing that Democrats have done to be responsible for Trump is to not cater to bigots, I'm good with that plan.
 
ZenMode said:
So, the original question was whether or not Democrats harbor and responsibility for the rise of Trump. The implication by Snoop was no, Dems have no responsibility. I pointed out that there is some actual basis for the belief that Dems are soft on crime... and a couple were pretty substantial examples..... one bordering on crazy.

That was just one example. I have others. There aren't 72 million nut cases like MTG/Lindell in the country. There are a lot of reasonable, sane people who voted for Trump and it very likely wasn't because they saw him as a great choice or even a good choice, any more than the 82 million Biden voters were voting FOR Biden because he was such a great candidate. Clearly he wasn't.
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We have someone here confusing gaslighting for bosiding and blame dems being "soft on crime" for people supporting a criminal huckster who pardons his criminal friends and anyone who can help him get elected...to grift and stay out of jail...because dems are soft on crime.

That same person mention the change since 2016 and can't connect the dots of what rose up...they say ignorance is Zen.
 
ZenMode said:
So, the original question was whether or not Democrats harbor and responsibility for the rise of Trump. The implication by Snoop was no, Dems have no responsibility. I pointed out that there is some actual basis for the belief that Dems are soft on crime... and a couple were pretty substantial examples..... one bordering on crazy.

That was just one example. I have others. There aren't 72 million nut cases like MTG/Lindell in the country. There are a lot of reasonable, sane people who voted for Trump and it very likely wasn't because they saw him as a great choice or even a good choice, any more than the 82 million Biden voters were voting FOR Biden because he was such a great candidate. Clearly he wasn't.
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Those are substantial examples? New York's bail reform to address the inequities associated with poor people being unable to make bond for low level crimes while people with money can? And something that a city council member in one city said?

And regardless of what one thinks about any of that, none of that has to do with the job of the POTUS. The POTUS’s job has nothing to do with state and local criminal laws or enforcement of those laws, and very rarely involves anything having to do with federal criminal law (which, generally speaking, the public seems much less concerned about than state-level crime).

And Trump certainly hasn’t shown himself to be tough on crime. He has embraced crime, welcomed criminals into his administration, and has let criminals off the hook just because they were loyal to him. And he’s made threats of people committing crimes if he doesn’t get his way.

Now I 100% agree that there is a perception among people that Democrats are soft on crime and Republicans are tough on crime. But that perception is based mainly on those people’s ignorance of both facts and how things actually work, rather than actual democratic policies and positions relating to federal criminal law.

Hell, they gave Biden hell in the last election for his past support of the 1994 crime bill (signed into law by Bill Clinton), which was a “tough on crime” bill that resulted in substantial prison sentences for certain criminal defendants, and praised Trump for signing the First Step Act, which reduced sentences for many prisoners and led to many early releases. (For the record, I supported the First Step Act am glad Trump signed it).
 
superrific said:
It is not arrogance for a professional to understand that he is better at his profession than non-professionals. To the contrary, the real arrogance comes from the non-professional who thinks his opinion is just as good.

You are right that whataboutism would be more accurate than bothsides. This might be the first time in board history that you've admitted you made a mistake. I'm not conceding that whataboutism is accurate, but at least it's in the realm of plausibility. It's not definitionally false.

If you think politics was the reason that people were pushing back on your false contention that abnormal is a factual description, then I don't know what to say. Maybe some people objected because they thought it was mean. My objection was based on semantics and logic. Normal is a judgment, end of story. Just like norms and normative. They all come from the same root (normal in math is different and comes from the Greek). I'm not going into this again.

Chalking up your errors to political persecution is pathetic. People weren't correcting you because of politics. They were correcting you because you were wrong.
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First, I never claimed political persecution. I'm not a victim of differing opinions.

Second, while I'm sure you are educated and reasonably intelligent, that doesn't mean you're flawless or unbiased. To me, your bias seems clear.

During the COVID pandemic/George Floyd riots, over 1,000 medical professionals signed a document saying that the protests should not be shut down due to the pandemic. Do you think those professionals were educated in their field? Do you think they were intelligent? Do you think they were reasoning based on the best available scientific information about the pandemic and believed that walking shoulder to shoulder, in huge groups, was a good idea during a pandemic or do you think they were biased by political views and emotion?
 
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ZenMode said:
First, I never claimed political persecution. I'm not a victim of differing opinions.

Second, while I'm sure you are educated and reasonably intelligent, that doesn't mean you're flawless or unbiased. To me, your bias seems clear.

During the COVID pandemic/George Floyd riots, over 1,000 medical professionals signed a document saying that the protests should not be shut down due to the pandemic. Do you think those professionals were educated in their field? Do you think they were intelligent? Do you think they were reasoning based on the best available scientific information about the pandemic and believed that walking shoulder to shoulder, in huge groups, was a good idea during a pandemic or do you think they were biased by political views.
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You referring to when Trump was president during Covid?
 
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