Hot Stove: UNC Basketball

[SnoopRob]

I wouldn't put EC or CL anywhere near the DG level.

Hubert hasn't earned the credibility to get buy in from players the way Roy or Dean had. Whoever replaces Hubert is also going to have players transfer out of the program with whispers of good riddance. It is part of the game these days.

I wouldn't put say that any of those players are necessary "the problem" at any level. Garcia was somewhat different than the other two, but even he went on to be a reasonably successful player elsewhere.

There will certainly be turnover in every program at this point, especially if there is a coaching change.

But if we're going to float the idea of addition-by-subtraction regarding a specific player, we should also note the pattern that this keeps happening.

 

[SnoopRob]

How were DG, CL or EC treated shabbily?

DG left the program by choice in mid-season, the other two were effectively told to go into the portal. I'm guessing no one commits to a team thinking they'd be told to transfer in a couple of years.

 

[Calheel]

I wouldn't put say that any of those players are necessary "the problem" at any level. Garcia was somewhat different than the other two, but even he went on to be a reasonably successful player elsewhere.

There will certainly be turnover in every program at this point, especially if there is a coaching change.

But if we're going to float the idea of addition-by-subtraction regarding a specific player, we should also note the pattern that this keeps happening.

Garcia abandoned the team when HD put Manek in the starting lineup. He very much pulled a Larry Drew. Unless Hubert made some crazy promise to Garcia during the recruiting process, which I highly doubt, I place 100% of the blame on that situation on Garcia.

Love and Cadeau are different. Part of the "subtraction" issue is that you had too many players for the same basic position -- Love and RJ both should be playing the two, and Cadeau and Trimble had trouble co-existing (recognizing that Trimble is most certainly not a true, full-time PG).

Sometimes the subtraction has more to do with overall roster composition than any individual failing by player or coach. HD wants a taller PG -- perhaps as an overreaction to this year. But that doesn't necessarily reflect a character flaw on the part of him or Elliot.

 

[Calheel]

DG left the program by choice in mid-season, the other two were effectively told to go into the portal. I'm guessing no one commits to a team thinking they'd be told to transfer in a couple of years.

First, I don't think Hubert told EC to go in the portal (although I do think he basically said that to Caleb). I think it was pretty clear to both sides that a change would be beneficial and that was coming as least as much from Cadeau.

Love was more complicated, as he really wanted to be a Heel, but he also understood the roster composition challenges with him, RJ and Elliot all on the same squad and that there would not be enough minutes for everyone, especially with HD's plan to get a 3 and 4 in the portal.

 

[Mundial]

This has been dubunked over and over and over. DG left due to the fact that his grandmother was seriously ill, he was very close to her and he went back home to play for Minnesota, hardly a basketball or NIL powerhouse.

 

[SnoopRob]

Garcia abandoned the team when HD put Manek in the starting lineup. He very much pulled a Larry Drew. Unless Hubert made some crazy promise to Garcia during the recruiting process, which I highly doubt, I place 100% of the blame on that situation on Garcia.

Love and Cadeau are different. Part of the "subtraction" issue is that you had too many players for the same basic position -- Love and RJ both should be playing the two, and Cadeau and Trimble had trouble co-existing (recognizing that Trimble is most certainly not a true, full-time PG).

Sometimes the subtraction has more to do with overall roster composition than any individual failing by player or coach. HD wants a taller PG -- perhaps as an overreaction to this year. But that doesn't necessarily reflect a character flaw on the part of him or Elliot.

First, I don't think Hubert told EC to go in the portal (although I do think he basically said that to Caleb). I think it was pretty clear to both sides that a change would be beneficial and that was coming as least as much from Cadeau.

Love was more complicated, as he really wanted to be a Heel, but he also understood the roster composition challenges with him, RJ and Elliot all on the same squad and that there would not be enough minutes for everyone, especially with HD's plan to get a 3 and 4 in the portal.

I can answer both of these in one go.

I acknowledge there are distinct differences between each case. And that you can make the case that each one is "addition by subtraction".

But when it keeps occurring over and over again, essentially each time the team fails to live up to expectations, there is something greater going on that is beyond the player level of the team. Viewing each case independently allows us to miss the obvious pattern and the obvious pattern indicates where the real issue lies.

 

[donbosco]

I sometimes wonder if the so-called "problem" at Carolina is indeed The Carolina Way.

 

[Calheel]

I can answer both of these in one go.

I acknowledge there are distinct differences between each case. And that you can make the case that each one is "addition by subtraction".

But when it keeps occurring over and over again, essentially each time the team fails to live up to expectations, there is something greater going on that is beyond the player level of the team. Viewing each case independently allows us to miss the obvious pattern and the obvious pattern indicates where the real issue lies.

There are three possibilities as I see it:

1. Hubert is a bad coach and he rubs too many players the wrong way.
2. The roster construction has been poor, which may or may not be cured with an improved player personnel department.
3. The attrition is the result of changes in the CBB landscape and are not different in scope or kind than other major programs.

I think you believe the answer is just one of the three, as you write "there is something greater going on" as opposed to "there are several things going on." I think it is likely a combination of all three factors.

 

[SnoopRob]

I sometimes wonder if the so-called "problem" at Carolina is indeed The Carolina Way.

The Carolina Way has evolved to meet contemporary challenges numerous times over the last 60 years. It certainly can evolve again to meet the current landscape of college basketball.

The questions facing Carolina Basketball are...

- Do we have the proper folks in place to carry on The Carolina Way (winning while standing for things greater than just winning) in the current CBB environment?
- If not, how do we find the proper folks to carry on The Carolina Way into the current and future CBB environment?

I think most Carolina Basketball fans very much want to carry on The Carolina Way into the future. The question facing us is how we do so?

 

[UNCatTech]

The problem is that we apparently have these issues with players over and over again…seemingly every time the team doesn’t play well.

Dawson Garcia was a problem for the team. Caleb Love was a problem for the team. Now Elliot Cadeau is the problem.

When this happens over and over again, it’s not really the players.

Garcia clearly didn't fit.

I thought Love was different in that there was more of a position conflict.

We don't yet know about EC.

agree it could become a concern if it continues to happen, but addition by substation is real.

 

[finesse]

DG left the program by choice in mid-season, the other two were effectively told to go into the portal. I'm guessing no one commits to a team thinking they'd be told to transfer in a couple of years.

It only took one for Dean to do that to Clifford Rozier. Iirc ,I think he ended up an all American at Louisville.

 

[SnoopRob]

There are three possibilities as I see it:

1. Hubert is a bad coach and he rubs too many players the wrong way.
2. The roster construction has been poor, which may or may not be cured with an improved player personnel department.
3. The attrition is the result of changes in the CBB landscape and are not different in scope or kind than other major programs.

I think you believe the answer is just one of the three, as you write "there is something greater going on" as opposed to "there are several things going on." I think it is likely a combination of all three factors.

I think that there are several things going on that lead us to our current situation, including the 3 things you mention. My takes on them:

1. I don't think HD is a "bad coach" nor do I think he "rubs players the wrong way". I think he is a decent (namely inexperienced) coach at a program where expectations don't really allow for the failures and growing pains associated with decent/inexperienced coaching.
2. The roster construction has been less-than-optimal. Roster construction is ultimately a head coach responsibility and has been used as an excuse to cover for other, more significant, coaching issues.
3. The landscape of CBB has certainly changed over the last few years. An acceptable head coach for Carolina Basketball will be able to create and carry out a plan for success that takes into account those changes as those changes are largely permanent.

I'll be clear...HD as our head coach (due to lack of experience and, possibly, his ceiling as a coach) is the main issue with Carolina Basketball in April 2025. We can try to improve a number of other things - support staff, player development programs, NIL, HS & transfer scouting, etc - but (in the near term) as long as HD is the coach, Carolina Basketball is not putting itself in the best position to succeed because it is settling for a significant deficit at the head coach position over what the program could almost certainly obtain should it seek a new head coach.

When we try to isolate the symptoms - "problem" players, roster construction, changing landscape of CBB, lack of player development, slow starts, whatever - we can easily lose sight of one central truth...the head coach is the primary person responsible for addressing all of those things. And, while I am not saying you are necessarily doing this, there are certainly HD supporters who are intentionally focusing on the symptoms to avoid having to address the main issue: HD is significantly underperforming for the position he holds and the main way to address that concern is to obtain a new head coach. Because even if we address all of the symptoms noted above, we still are settling for a significant deficit in the head coaching position over other available options.

 

[Bigs23]

The problem is that we apparently have these issues with players over and over again…seemingly every time the team doesn’t play well.

Dawson Garcia was a problem for the team. Caleb Love was a problem for the team. Now Elliot Cadeau is the problem.

When this happens over and over again, it’s not really the players.

This happens everywhere.

 

[Bigs23]

It only took one for Dean to do that to Clifford Rozier. Iirc ,I think he ended up an all American at Louisville.

It’s year to year since the free portal opened.

 

[donbosco]

@SnoopRob Wrote: "I think most Carolina Basketball fans very much want to carry on The Carolina Way into the future."

This is not the only message board where I post nor the only social media and frankly I hear from an alarming number of Carolina Basketball fans, many of them alumni, that clearly do not "want to carry on The Carolina Way," at least in any way that I recognize it.

But then that calls into question "how does one define The Carolina Way?"

 

[StoneColdTarHeel]

a lot of players are off the board already and in a little over 2 weeks players will no longer be able to enter the portal.

time and options are dwindling.

Exactly. It is getting concerning.

 

[StrangePackage]

@SnoopRob Wrote: "I think most Carolina Basketball fans very much want to carry on The Carolina Way into the future."

This is not the only message board where I post nor the only social media and frankly I hear from an alarming number of Carolina Basketball fans, many of them alumni, that clearly do not "want to carry on The Carolina Way," at least in any way that I recognize it.

But then that calls into question "how does one define The Carolina Way?"

It doesn't need to mean the slavish devotion to the lineage of Dean Smith. At this point the program needs an infusion of new blood.

 

[Bigs23]

It’s going to be difficult to maintain The Carolina Way and win big at the same time.

The players are in control now.

 

[LosPollosHermanos]

The Carolina way used to mean playing clean and winning. But now everything is allowed so everyone is "clean". It's the wild wild west and our gunslinger is Ned Flanders with a cap gun.

 

[Calheel]

it is settling for a significant deficit at the head coach position over what the program could almost certainly obtain should it seek a new head coach.

I agree with almost 100% of what you wrote. Maybe Rock needs to add a 95% like emoticon.

But the quoted line is where I have some qualms. There is no doubt that UNC would have the pick of a lot of good coaches, and as long as we don't UNC it up (ahem, Matt Doherty) we could get someone better than Hubert. But the UNC job has a lot of differences from most basketball jobs and it is not as though every successful coach will be successful in this environment. Also, there is the whole conference thing. If we were already in the SEC, I'd feel a lot better about our ability to draw coaches.

But not every coach hire by a blueblood is a Roy Williams to Bill Self homerun. Sometimes you get the Billy GIllespies before you get the John Caliparis. And then there is post Bob Knight Indiana. In other words, I don't think it is "certain" that we will improve the coaching deficit with a new hire. I think it is more likely than not. But there is a risk with such a move, too.