Hubert Davis Catch-all

[donbosco]

Down in #DeepChatham a lot of sports fans among the white folk are state college backers because of the logical historical agricultural connection. Frankly among the few who went to college from down that way more went to state than any other school. My first cousin went there and got a PHD in Poultry Science -- a pointy-head people there appreciate.

There were a few Carolina fans growing up...Gracias a Dios my father was -- I think because of Frank Porter Graham's character as well as the 1957 team but also because he was disposed to value the humanities a great deal. The top-notch Med School was also a plus for him as well as the Law School (which turned out most of the state's political leaders once upon a time). Local pharmacists were always Tar Heel backers -- think about all the small towns in North Carolina that had a drug store named "Carolina Pharmacy" or "Carolina Drugs." But these fans were outnumbered by the state goobers.

There were few dook fans...as I've written before I only knew a single family though my own grandmother was also a dook fan because they had given her a job on janitorial staff when they briefly lost the farm and moved to derm during the Great Depression. She did pass that malady on to my Uncle Doc but thankfully his children did not go there so my first cousins are good to go.

Of late, there have been a great increase in dook fans...supplanting the state crowd as best I can tell...the hats are the real tell. This corresponds with a turn to "enjoying" (though hardly understanding) the Carolina Hurricanes. That's about whiteness I'd posit since dook tends to garner a higher percentage of the best white players in the country and of course ice hockey is the very whitest of professional sports. Whether most of those folks remember or even know about it...Jesse Helms did call UNC "the University of Negroes and Communists." Redneck Right-Wing and White Supremacist dook fans are all over the countryside these days.

 

[finesse]

Why do you feel that this season isn't the turnaround you've been looking for? That's what I don't get. We have a great record against ranked teams, we're on track to jump in our tournament seedings despite some key injuries, we're off to a good start on recruiting and Hubert has made, imo, some serious coaching strides. It looks to me like what we've been hoping for. So now, you want to burn the whole thing down, alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world just to start over with a new system, a new coach and who knows what kind of roster to go through a rebuilding period again? I could understand if this team was covered in flop sweat but now? I just don't get it.

 

[Enigma94]

Yeah at this point, and caveat this with the fact that there is still season to be played, there is no way we could reasonably fire Davis. I don't care what Kenpom and Torvik say our ranking is, our wins are as good or better than just about anybody out there. Speaking of which, it boggles my mind that Louisville could still be 13 spots higher than us in the metrics. The only reason I can find is that they beat South Carolina State, Jackson State and New Jersey Institute of Technology by an average of 50 points. But who gives a shit?

 

[donbosco]

This margin of victory bullshit literally prevents coaches from developing the second and third team players.

It sucks and is bad for the game.

 

[heel79]

Why do you feel that this season isn't the turnaround you've been looking for? That's what I don't get. We have a great record against ranked teams, we're on track to jump in our tournament seedings despite some key injuries, we're off to a good start on recruiting and Hubert has made, imo, some serious coaching strides. It looks to me like what we've been hoping for. So now, you want to burn the whole thing down, alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world just to start over with a new system, a new coach and who knows what kind of roster to go through a rebuilding period again? I could understand if this team was covered in flop sweat but now? I just don't get it.

Me either. Strange.

 

[Centerpiece]

I think it's important to acknowledge that (i) there almost certainly are some UNC fans that have been predisposed to dislike Hubert because of his race, and/or their perception that he got the job because of his race; and (ii) there is an entirely rational argument, having nothing to do with race, that Hubert's overall results as UNC's head coach simply have not been good enough to have confidence that he is the right guy to lead the program moving forward (and the next few weeks are going to be important in how strong or weak that argument looks at the end of the season).

No argument from me on (ii)... but that's not why I made the comment. It was totally in reference to (i).
I see you at least acknowledged (i).

 

[Centerpiece]

I think Zayden is doing an admirable job with Caleb out but the chances that him playing would have materially changed last season are extremely low. He probably would have been our 4th big and not played very much.

Nope. Zayden would most certainly had been a huge help last season. Wasn't that the season where we whiffed on getting a BIG in the portal... and we had to cobble together some post presence... and that didn't really materialize at all until Lubin started playing like he had a pair? ZH would have played - A lot - last season. And if he had played then like he's played the last 3-4 games... we would have won a couple more games IMHO

 

[Enigma94]

Wasn't High suspended well before the season though? My point is that Davis knew he wasn't going to have High last year when building his roster, so I don't think you can say that his not being on the team last year mitigates the performance. It's not like Davis was relying on having High and he was removed from the team right before the season began, unless I'm mixing up the timeline.

 

[donbosco]

Coaches probably knew High was either gone or going to be suspended by late August of 2024.

 

[Enigma94]

Coaches probably knew High was either gone or going to be suspended by late August of 2024.

So then I am incorrect and they didn't know prior to building the roster. That does create some level of mitigating factor. Bottom line, Davis is responsible for the team, and I'm not sure having High last year makes a big difference, but that is some additional context.

 

[Sheetsfaced]

Nope. Zayden would most certainly had been a huge help last season. Wasn't that the season where we whiffed on getting a BIG in the portal... and we had to cobble together some post presence... and that didn't really materialize at all until Lubin started playing like he had a pair? ZH would have played - A lot - last season. And if he had played then like he's played the last 3-4 games... we would have won a couple more games IMHO

Based on what exactly? High didn’t play this year until out of necessity. Hubert doesn’t exactly have a track record of developing a bench and I don’t see any reason to believe he would’ve played much last year when he was a year younger.


He almost certainly would’ve been behind Lubin, Withers, and Washington in the rotation. And most likely Cade Tyson too, who played less than 8 mins a game but is averaging 20 points a game for a Big Ten team this season. To be fair to Hubert, Tyson was awful last year, but maybe if he had a longer leash he would’ve found his groove?

So maybe High takes Claude’s 4.9 mins a game?

I think it’s pretty ridiculous to think High would’ve moved the needle last season.

I think Hubert has earned another season but if he doesn’t find a way to continue to develop depth it’s going to continue to be a problem. If Wilson and Henri don’t get hurt does High transfer and break out next season for some else?

 

[finesse]

Based on what exactly? High didn’t play this year until out of necessity. Hubert doesn’t exactly have a track record of developing a bench and I don’t see any reason to believe he would’ve played much last year when he was a year younger.


He almost certainly would’ve been behind Lubin, Withers, and Washington in the rotation. And most likely Cade Tyson too, who played less than 8 mins a game but is averaging 20 points a game for a Big Ten team this season. To be fair to Hubert, Tyson was awful last year, but maybe if he had a longer leash he would’ve found his groove?

So maybe High takes Claude’s 4.9 mins a game?

I think it’s pretty ridiculous to think High would’ve moved the needle last season.

I think Hubert has earned another season but if he doesn’t find a way to continue to develop depth it’s going to continue to be a problem. If Wilson and Henri don’t get hurt does High transfer and break out next season for some else?

If he did after we stood behind him during the suspension, the door couldn't hit him in the ass fast enough on his way out. If that was who he was , I wouldn't want him on my team and in my locker room.

 

[Bigs23]

Based on what exactly? High didn’t play this year until out of necessity. Hubert doesn’t exactly have a track record of developing a bench and I don’t see any reason to believe he would’ve played much last year when he was a year younger.


He almost certainly would’ve been behind Lubin, Withers, and Washington in the rotation. And most likely Cade Tyson too, who played less than 8 mins a game but is averaging 20 points a game for a Big Ten team this season. To be fair to Hubert, Tyson was awful last year, but maybe if he had a longer leash he would’ve found his groove?

So maybe High takes Claude’s 4.9 mins a game?

I think it’s pretty ridiculous to think High would’ve moved the needle last season.

I think Hubert has earned another season but if he doesn’t find a way to continue to develop depth it’s going to continue to be a problem. If Wilson and Henri don’t get hurt does High transfer and break out next season for some else?

I think he's built good depth this year. High makes the 10th guy averaging over 7 minutes a game. Wilson and Bessar are at 31 mpg. How much less do you want them playing?

 

[Calheel]

If he did after we stood behind him during the suspension, the door couldn't hit him in the ass fast enough on his way out. If that was who he was , I wouldn't want him on my team and in my locker room.

Transferring for playing time is hardly a moral failing.

 

[finesse]

Transferring for playing time is hardly a moral failing.

In the normal course of events,no.

 

[rodoheel]

Why do you feel that this season isn't the turnaround you've been looking for? That's what I don't get. We have a great record against ranked teams, we're on track to jump in our tournament seedings despite some key injuries, we're off to a good start on recruiting and Hubert has made, imo, some serious coaching strides. It looks to me like what we've been hoping for. So now, you want to burn the whole thing down, alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world just to start over with a new system, a new coach and who knows what kind of roster to go through a rebuilding period again? I could understand if this team was covered in flop sweat but now? I just don't get it.

This is UNC. We rightfully think of ourselves as one of the 3-5 elite programs in college basketball. "Jumping" from an 11 seed to, say, a 5 seed, is obviously an improvement, but not necessarily enough of an improvement that you can say with a straight face "I think Hubert Davis will imminently have UNC back among the 3-5 best college basketball programs in the country" (especially given that we reportedly had a top 10 budget for players, nationally, this season). UNC needs to regularly have top 3 seeds in the NCAAT. 5 seeds are supposed to be a down year; 11 seeds or, god forbid, missing the tournament is basically a disaster. So no, I can't say that something like a 5 seed (which we'd still have to close strong to earn" and something like a 2nd round or S16 loss is "what we've been hoping for" in terms of results. It certainly doesn't indicate that we're back to nationally elite status. And given that we are likely to lose Trimble, Veesaar, and Wilson, it's not like we are looking at some obvious further step up to 1-2 seed territory next year.

Also, I just entirely disagree with what I would call the false dichotomy of your post. If we get a seed in the 5-8 range, don't make the S16, and fire Hubert, I absolutely do not think we would "alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world." People understand that UNC basketball has high standards, and that Hubert has failed to meet them more often that not. I don't know what the basis is for thinking we would ridiculed for making a coaching change in that scenario. Hubert has gotten 2 more years than Doherty did; it's not like people can credibly say he didn't have a fair chance.

We will obviously have to wait until after the season to make the final call on this. Hubert has rescued his job, and our program, with a strong February/March before. It could happen again. But I said before the season started that if we couldn't accomplish 2 out of 3 from (1) top 4 NCAAT seed, (2) top 3 ACC finish, and (3) S16 appearance, I would be arguing that it's time to move on. If the season ended today, we'd fall short of 2 of those 3 benchmarks. And contrary to what you suggested, making a coaching change would not "burn" anything down or doom us to some rebuilding period. This is the modern era of college basketball and player movement. It doesn't take years to rebuild now. If we spend a lot of money to hire an elite coach, the expectation will be that he wins right away. No one is talking about going to the NIT while the new coach gets his system in place, or something like that.

 

[rodoheel]

Nope. Zayden would most certainly had been a huge help last season. Wasn't that the season where we whiffed on getting a BIG in the portal... and we had to cobble together some post presence... and that didn't really materialize at all until Lubin started playing like he had a pair? ZH would have played - A lot - last season. And if he had played then like he's played the last 3-4 games... we would have won a couple more games IMHO

I think you are just way overrating how good High is. His numbers this year (on a per-minute basis) are easily worse than what the two guys we had playing C, Washington and Lubin, were averaging last year. Both Washington and Lubin are elsewhere playing bigger roles for good teams, while High was buried on the bench until Wilson got hurt because he wasn't all that effective when he was in.

I'm glad he's playing hard and holding up well. He's earned the plaudits coming his way for his effort and energy. But he is not more than a solid 3rd big on a good team right now, and he definitely wouldn't have been more than that last season. Thinking he would have not only been as good as Lubin and Washington last year, but been so much better than he was worth 2 more wins on his own, is crazy talk, IMO. We can enjoy his current contributions without constructing an extremely alternate history around last season.

 

[He's Not Here]

Why do you feel that this season isn't the turnaround you've been looking for? That's what I don't get. We have a great record against ranked teams, we're on track to jump in our tournament seedings despite some key injuries, we're off to a good start on recruiting and Hubert has made, imo, some serious coaching strides. It looks to me like what we've been hoping for. So now, you want to burn the whole thing down, alienate a large portion of the fan base, look ridiculous and be ridiculed by about two thirds of the sports world just to start over with a new system, a new coach and who knows what kind of roster to go through a rebuilding period again? I could understand if this team was covered in flop sweat but now? I just don't get it.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but…
While I think he’s done enough to get another season, the fact is that he hasn’t had quality seasons on consecutive years.
Year 1 - finals
Year 2 - miss the tournament
Year 3 - 1 seed
Year 4 - last team in
Year 5 - overall, a success, albeit with some head scratchers (most notably, the west coast swing and the size of the loss to MooU)
Year 6 - ?????

 

[CarolinaFever]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but…
While I think he’s done enough to get another season, the fact is that he hasn’t had quality seasons on consecutive years.
Year 1 - finals
Year 2 - miss the tournament
Year 3 - 1 seed
Year 4 - last team in
Year 5 - overall, a success, albeit with some head scratchers (most notably, the west coast swing and the size of the loss to MooU)
Year 6 - ?????

Have to see where this year's team ends up. It's been ok overall, but there has just been a lot of up and down from year to year. Year 1 was really just mediocre until they made the run at the end of the season. Year 3 they still lost in the Sweet 16 to a lower seed. This year has been good, but still there are losses that make it look inconsistent with the west coast losses and the way they were blown out by State. They have had games where they had big leads and ended up in a nail biter, too, but at least they won those this year compared to collapses in years past.

 

[Enigma94]

People who want Davis gone need to stop claiming that his first year was just some magical run at the end of the year. We went 17-4 over the last 21 games or more than half the season and finished 15-5 in the ACC for second place. I mean the west coast swing is being held against this year’s team and it was two fucking games, but over half a season of superlative results somehow doesn’t count.