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Just to be clear, I am not trolling but I can understand why some miss the point of my posts. I hope most non concrete posters here do get my point.
Hubert Davis Catch-all
- Thread starter LeoBloom
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- UNC Sports
GoHeelsweeeehoooo
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Seems to be a lot of buzz on 247 that there will be a new coach next season - no one knows yet who but all the big names are being mentioned
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My views on HD:
I remember as far back as the 2010s when Hubert was an assistant, there were people on the IC message boards who believed he was being groomed to be Roy’s successor. I thought that was crazy. He had had no coaching experience— as a head coach or assistant— prior to taking that assistant coaching job at UNC. I thought UNC would want to avoid hiring an inexperienced coach and would go after a big name, or as big of name as it could get.
Fast forward to Roy’s retirement. There really wasn’t a head coach out there we had a realistic chance of getting that I was excited about. I didn’t think we had any realistic shot at landing Brad Stevens, Mark Few, or Jay Wright; names that seemed to excite many in the UNC fanbase. And frankly, I wanted someone a little younger than Few and Wright. Apart from those guys, there was no one out there that I thought would be a sure thing in terms of achieving success at UNC.
When it was announced that it would be Hubert Davis, I can’t say it was exciting in terms of thinking that we found a sure winner. But it was exciting in terms of it being someone with a history at UNC whom the players seemed to love. And if Roy thought he had what it took, there was reason to believe in Roy’s judgment. There was some excitement in the unknown. So I figured, “Why not?” I strongly believed he deserved a mimimim of three years to show what he could do.
For a good chunk of Davis’s first season, I wasn’t so sure about him. We just didn’t look all that good. We looked disorganized. There was a lot of dribbling and some poor shot selection. We got blown out by some quality teams and looked like we just couldn’t compete with them. But then in March, things turned around. We beat Duke in Cameron in a highly publicized game due to it being K’s last there. Then we made that amazing run in the NCAAT eventually knocking Duke out of the Final Four while also ending K’s career; one of the truly great moments in UNC basketball history. While losing the championship game to Kansas was a bummer— especially after building a 15-point lead— I didn’t put that on Hubert. We ended up playing with a MASH unit in that game and came so close to winning it. I felt like Hubert had figured something out; like he had grown as a coach during the season. I thought he bought himself at least one more year beyond those years I initially thought he should have to prove himself.
With almost everyone returning in 2022-23, coming off a national runner-up season, I felt very good about what was to come. It ended up being bad. Not only did we not get the results we wanted, we looked bad along the way. Once again, we looked disorganized, too much dribbling, bad shot selection, etc. I was again concerned about Hubert’s coaching and I didn’t think he bought himself any extra time beyond the next two years to show what he could do.
He put together a really good team in 2023-24. I was pretty firmly on the Hubert train that season. It was a good team and he seemed to be doing a really good job of coaching it. While losing in that Sweet 16 to Alabama was disappointing, I couldn’t put that loss on Hubert. Who would have thought that his star, sharp-shooting guard, who was a first team AA and ACC POY, would go 0-9 from 3? That wasn’t Hubert’s fault. He had no control over that. It also wasn’t his fault that Bacot missed a dunk. At the end of that season I was still firmly on the Hubert train and I thought he bought himself another season beyond the next one.
Then the 2024-25 happened. That season was fairly rough. I was a bit torn on Hubert then. I’d did see some things that made me question his coaching. But it also appeared that if he just had at least one high quality big, that team could have been very successful. At the same time, the coach bears responsibility of putting together the roster. I didn’t feel like he bought himself any additional time with that season, and that he had this— the 2025-26– season to prove himself.
I don’t think he put together a great team, but he had enough pieces for the team to do relatively well. Landing Caleb was obviously huge. Veesaar was another really good get. The guard situation was not so good and would clearly be our Achilles heel down the stretch. We rarely looked great— even with a healthy Caleb— but we mostly looked pretty solid and generally took care of business. And what he accomplished without Caleb prior to the last three games of the season was admirable. I felt he deserved another year before those last three games.
But then we looked really bad in those games vs. Duke and Clemson. At that point, I thought Hubert at least needed to show us something in the NCAAT. I didn’t expect a deep run, but I thought he needed at least one win and a good fight in the second round. And when we were up 19 in the second half last night, I thought that mission was mostly accomplished. But then came the collapse. And it wa a bad and inexcusable. And that’s when he lost me.
I remember as far back as the 2010s when Hubert was an assistant, there were people on the IC message boards who believed he was being groomed to be Roy’s successor. I thought that was crazy. He had had no coaching experience— as a head coach or assistant— prior to taking that assistant coaching job at UNC. I thought UNC would want to avoid hiring an inexperienced coach and would go after a big name, or as big of name as it could get.
Fast forward to Roy’s retirement. There really wasn’t a head coach out there we had a realistic chance of getting that I was excited about. I didn’t think we had any realistic shot at landing Brad Stevens, Mark Few, or Jay Wright; names that seemed to excite many in the UNC fanbase. And frankly, I wanted someone a little younger than Few and Wright. Apart from those guys, there was no one out there that I thought would be a sure thing in terms of achieving success at UNC.
When it was announced that it would be Hubert Davis, I can’t say it was exciting in terms of thinking that we found a sure winner. But it was exciting in terms of it being someone with a history at UNC whom the players seemed to love. And if Roy thought he had what it took, there was reason to believe in Roy’s judgment. There was some excitement in the unknown. So I figured, “Why not?” I strongly believed he deserved a mimimim of three years to show what he could do.
For a good chunk of Davis’s first season, I wasn’t so sure about him. We just didn’t look all that good. We looked disorganized. There was a lot of dribbling and some poor shot selection. We got blown out by some quality teams and looked like we just couldn’t compete with them. But then in March, things turned around. We beat Duke in Cameron in a highly publicized game due to it being K’s last there. Then we made that amazing run in the NCAAT eventually knocking Duke out of the Final Four while also ending K’s career; one of the truly great moments in UNC basketball history. While losing the championship game to Kansas was a bummer— especially after building a 15-point lead— I didn’t put that on Hubert. We ended up playing with a MASH unit in that game and came so close to winning it. I felt like Hubert had figured something out; like he had grown as a coach during the season. I thought he bought himself at least one more year beyond those years I initially thought he should have to prove himself.
With almost everyone returning in 2022-23, coming off a national runner-up season, I felt very good about what was to come. It ended up being bad. Not only did we not get the results we wanted, we looked bad along the way. Once again, we looked disorganized, too much dribbling, bad shot selection, etc. I was again concerned about Hubert’s coaching and I didn’t think he bought himself any extra time beyond the next two years to show what he could do.
He put together a really good team in 2023-24. I was pretty firmly on the Hubert train that season. It was a good team and he seemed to be doing a really good job of coaching it. While losing in that Sweet 16 to Alabama was disappointing, I couldn’t put that loss on Hubert. Who would have thought that his star, sharp-shooting guard, who was a first team AA and ACC POY, would go 0-9 from 3? That wasn’t Hubert’s fault. He had no control over that. It also wasn’t his fault that Bacot missed a dunk. At the end of that season I was still firmly on the Hubert train and I thought he bought himself another season beyond the next one.
Then the 2024-25 happened. That season was fairly rough. I was a bit torn on Hubert then. I’d did see some things that made me question his coaching. But it also appeared that if he just had at least one high quality big, that team could have been very successful. At the same time, the coach bears responsibility of putting together the roster. I didn’t feel like he bought himself any additional time with that season, and that he had this— the 2025-26– season to prove himself.
I don’t think he put together a great team, but he had enough pieces for the team to do relatively well. Landing Caleb was obviously huge. Veesaar was another really good get. The guard situation was not so good and would clearly be our Achilles heel down the stretch. We rarely looked great— even with a healthy Caleb— but we mostly looked pretty solid and generally took care of business. And what he accomplished without Caleb prior to the last three games of the season was admirable. I felt he deserved another year before those last three games.
But then we looked really bad in those games vs. Duke and Clemson. At that point, I thought Hubert at least needed to show us something in the NCAAT. I didn’t expect a deep run, but I thought he needed at least one win and a good fight in the second round. And when we were up 19 in the second half last night, I thought that mission was mostly accomplished. But then came the collapse. And it wa a bad and inexcusable. And that’s when he lost me.
GoHeelsweeeehoooo
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Maybe we could steal Jerod Haase from UNCG
superrific
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See, you're exaggerating again. "Anyone" who ever questioned "any" decision by HD? I know that to be false, because I questioned decisions by HD and was never accused of anything.
The problem is that beefs on message boards can develop over time in a way that is unhealthy. It's not just on this topic but it's more visible here. Let's go through it:
Step 1: Alice and Bob have an argument.
Step 2: The argument doesn't resolve itself. Alice and Bob do not "agree to disagree." They don't reach a point of consensus about anything. They just continue fighting.
Step 3: Whatever they were arguing about fades in importance. This is the important step and what makes sports conversations toxic in this regard. The day after the game is step 1. The day after that is step 2. And then there's a new game. We're no longer going to argue about the last one.
Step 4: Except that Alice and Bob aren't done arguing. They were never done arguing. So now there's a new argument after the next game. It presents as a new argument, but it isn't new at all. It's a continuation of it.
So then what happens? You bring up a point of criticism -- let's take an example from the VCU game so it's fresh in mind, and let's also take an example that isn't controversial. Our guys looked tired at the end and their FT shooting confirmed it. So maybe it was a mistake not to use the bench. This is something that could be talked about reasonably.
But it doesn't get talked about reasonably because you aren't really talking about that. You are still arguing over Step 1. And Step 1 might have been a year and a half ago and the fight goes on still. So when you now say, "Bigs accused anyone who ever questioned any decision," that's sort of true but more misleading. He might have been outraged or indignant about the specific criticism, which was novel. But the gist of the criticism, the people making the criticism, and the general tone of the criticism is not new. It's the same as always.
This was one of my points in comments last night. Arguments get jumbled together because everyone is looking to argue. So what happens is things get distorted. Reading the comments last night, one could get the impression that HD was one of the worst coaches in the country. He is very much not. Whatever you think of him, he does actually know how to design and coach offense. Maybe he doesn't do it as effectively, or maybe his efforts get cancelled out by other factors, or what have you.
And another result is that the criticisms become incoherent. In part that is an unavoidable consequence of a multi-person message board where different people, generally on the same side of the issue, espouse different theories. Over time, it becomes harder to separate who says what, and thus everyone gets assigned positions that they don't necessarily hold, but someone on "their side" does. And that makes conversation impossible.
It's like I was saying about losing big leads versus starting too slow. That's fundamentally incoherent. If you think the team that is winning by 19 at some point in the game is the better team, then every time we start slow, it's not our fault: the other team is better, by stipulation. Or, on the flip side, if we get a big lead, maybe it's because the other team started slow.
superrific
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I think one problem is that some people lather themselves up to the point where everything is about HD all the time. It's as if the other team gets no agency at all. If we fall behind, it's because we sucked. If we lose big leads, it's because we sucked. If we come from behind, it's because the other team sucked. It's the maximum negativity I was talking about last night. Every single thing becomes a referendum on the coach; the referendum is always taken to be negative; and thus we get a situation where a pretty decent season is turned into a horrible catastrophe.
That said, it's also true that not everyone lathers up that way. CF is definitely one who does. I can't imagine watching a game with him in person. I'm positive he would make it a miserable experience for everyone. But not everyone is CF. Most are not CF. But CF is vocal. The argument goes on a long time. We forget the distinctions between different posters' views. So we start attributing the most out there views to everyone on the other side.
And then this leads to endless internecine warfare.
One rule I've had in my marriages, that I think work well and probably if my ex-wife obeyed it we might still be married: never go to bed angry. I know, it's common. Almost cliche. But true. Because when you go to bed angry, when you wake up at best there's uncertainty. Are you still fighting or not? Where do you stand? The whole next day then becomes uncertain. It's awkward. It makes genuine reconciliation more difficult.
So there's a message board equivalent of that, and maybe that should be a general principle. Never end a game thread angry, if possible. Resolve the difference. It doesn't mean everyone has to agree all the time, but at least recognize the points:
For instance, I think we can all agree that our guys were tired at the end of the game. It might have been better to use the bench earlier, right? But our bench isn't good. High brings energy but he's frequently out of position on defense. Evans is Evans. So there are two sides. We should be able to agree that, whatever the reason, it didn't work. But then we get some other mook come in and make it all about Hubert. Well, whose fault is it that we have no bench? Isn't the coach responsible for roster construction? Yes . . .but that's not what we're talking about. We were talking about whether it was a blunder not to use the bench more.
And as this goes on and on, the toxicity from lingering arguments builds. We should try to at least agree to disagree.
LeoBloom
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Candidates are going to ask what the plan is and we need an answer.
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Seems to be a common theme.
Yeah he’s exaggerating, he sounds kinda unhinged. HD-haters are prone to tantrums we’ve learned.
Bigs’ perspective has been very similar to mine on this stuff — HD is imperfect, but we like staying with him more than turning against him, for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which is because he’s owed respect as a lifelong Heel in a way that no lousy message board poster like stinky or anyone else here could ever hope to have experienced. So people like Bigs and I have leaned toward humility and benefit of the doubt, all the while not being blind to his shortcomings as a coach, even as much as nits could be endlessly picked over most of those.
None of that has changed, only now there are more results to consider.
I’m still happy to have HD back next year, and think there’s still room for him to grow. But I’m less convinced that he’s got the right support around him, or that he hasn’t insulated himself in a bubble that keeps him from getting the input he needs to improve. I’m more convinced of his stubbornness, and that’s the key reason I have doubts. Not his offense or ATO’s or whatever. It’s that I’m not sure he’s open enough to reconsidering much of anything. Like I said before, Roy was not so different in his stubbornness. But it looks a whole lot better when you win.
So if he’s gone, I get it. But what I don’t think you guys have ever grasped is what that means for severing a sacred lineage and legacy, and what kind of needle will need to be threaded to regain any semblance of it. Despite any increase in wins, titles, etc. which is also far from a given. You say you get it, you think you understand, but when it’s gone, we’re all going to know it. When that reality sinks in amid college basketball’s further slide into irrelevance, some of us will be less surprised than others.
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We should all be objective.
There's no reason to hate HD, by every measurable quality, I believe he is a good man.
We can look at his time as coach objectively and conclude that it's not up to the expectations of the position.
Therefore, without hate or bias, I hope that the school looks for a new coach and I hope that they land a winner.
There's no reason to hate HD, by every measurable quality, I believe he is a good man.
We can look at his time as coach objectively and conclude that it's not up to the expectations of the position.
Therefore, without hate or bias, I hope that the school looks for a new coach and I hope that they land a winner.
Centerpiece
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Agree! Absolutely no hate for Hubert… he’s simply run his race and should bow out gracefully for the good of the University basketball team he loves so dearly. He’s simply got to face the reality. He gave it his best shot. But his race is over.
donbosco
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To my quick read that’s a good narrative. This thread and all of the back and forth that literally dates back to the actual hiring of Hubert Davis leads me to the very depressing conclusion that if we fire Davis that we’re probably fucked for the next 5 to 7 years (i.e., next coach’s tenure). I have not seen mention of a pick that will be acceptable to more than around 50% of the faithful.
Whoever takes the job will have to work a miracle immediately. And will know it no matter what he might be told or what his contract might say.
If Coach Davis stays perhaps we are also fucked for whatever amount of time he continues in the job (he’s 56). I know many are convinced of that and with him perpetually on the ‘hot seat’ it will be very difficult for him to succeed as a recruiter regardless of actual coaching.
If Coach Davis resigns even that is problematic - if he does so as a man forced out then the ill will will fester. If he gloriously falls on his sword maybe the damage will be minimal - maybe - but he’ll have to work hard on that.
Frankly it appears to me that any way we turn we are looking at pain and very large percentages of our fellow Tar Heel Nation being disgruntled.
This happens to families. The closeness goes and rarely returns. We’re three generations removed from our baseline ancestor (I don’t count McGuire even though he begat Coach Smith) and amidst the fourth.
I’m a glass half full guy, almost annoyingly so. Nevertheless, it appears to me that the World of Our Ancestor is gone - never to return.
Ball games will continue and there will always be winners because that’s how it works. Dook may continue to excel because, well, they’re not a family and never have been. They’re only second generation anyway.
I don’t see anything like Carolina anywhere. It is rare. And bringing it back to the evidence of this thread and other discussions I’ve seen - it is over friends.
We may win. We may lose. And the memory of some things may dim and go misremembered or even altered.
Maybe I’m just depressed by it all but that’s what has dawned on me of late.
Centerpiece
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All that said… watching 6 seed Tennessee easily handle their 11 seed - a very good Miami of Ohio team - I really get upset at Hubert for being so dag gone “Roy stubborn” and not making any adjustments yesterday when things started going south. That loss was totally on the coach… and I say this as a former coach.
I’d take Rick Barnes in a NY minute as our coach.
Time to move on from Hubert
I’d take Rick Barnes in a NY minute as our coach.
Time to move on from Hubert
Bigs23
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Tenn also had its best player playing.
theel4life
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It’s a wrap and the name going around is going to give a lot of people a massive hard on.
A good rule of thumb about coaching searches:
No name will have more than 50% support. But once a name is announced and the initial changes take place, there is a group psychological effect that takes over, and the new coach will have a 90%-95% approval of the fan base before October. And that will last all the way until the first loss.
This rule applies with almost all coaching searches. Even Belichick had amazing fan support until the TCU game (despite lots of opposition before the hiring was finalized).
stankeylegjones
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Maybe I do come across as unhinged at times. But, in my defense, dealing with people who don't understand basic basketball, the UNC tradition, or that there is a difference between a person and their craft, can leave even the most rational person feeling a bit crazy at times.
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Barack Obama?It’s a wrap and the name going around is going to give a lot of people a massive hard on.
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And likewise the buzz around a new coach will almost always be okay with recruits that have committed or transfers that are thinking about us
theel4life
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