—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

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Callatoroy said:
That's not really feasible is it? I was hoping you would come up with something more realistic that addresses the problem.
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It’s not feasible for you to vote for Democrats? To join protest against something you claim to hold in disdain?

Or is it not feasible that Trump would change immigration/DHS policy. If that is what isn’t feasible, then you agree with everyone else here that your solution of “Fire Noem” and the other dude is equally not feasible.
 
UNCRx85 said:
I think a lot of it is - "does this thing make the other side mad?"

If yes - support
If no - do not support

Most of these people are perfectly capable of thinking critically for themselves, but to honestly endeavor to do that would mean abstaining from the dopamine hit they get from liberal tears.

It's an addiction. They're addicts.
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You know, I've given this a bit of thought lately. I actually don't think it's true that "many of these people are perfectly capable of thinking critically for themselves." I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a scientist or even someone with the slightest shred of knowledge or credibility on such, but it's been my thesis lately that if one day we had some scientific capability to study and measure right wing ideological inconsistency, we'd find literal physical mental disability (apologies if I'm not using the proper terminology on that). I genuinely believe that a vast number of Americans don't have the mental faculties required for adult level critical thought. Whether it is genetic, environmental, or something else, I don't know. But I do very much believe that for someone to be so profoundly ideologically inconsistent, as so many on the right wing have shown themselves to be- and we have an example of multiple of them here on our board- their failings surely must be more biological and physiological than political.
 
Callatoroy said:
Bovino should be fired, as should Noem. Put someone in the job who can exercise some common sense.
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No. Bovino should be in jail. As should Noem. Covering up state-sponsored murder seems like it should be a jailable offense.

If they had run proper investigations on the two murders and then disciplined the two officers, then they should have been fired due to ineptitude, but not jailed. This is well beyond that.
 
CFordUNC said:
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This is why I've been stressing to people that public opinion still remains very important in this and similar situations. Trump cares very deeply about public opinion and what people think about it. The deep, ingrained need for him to be loved is why he goes to such efforts to delude himself into thinking that he's popular with the citizenry and the electorate. More than any other factor, it's why he won't shut up, to this day, about having won the 2020 election, and why there is no scenario in which he will ever let it go.

His concept of public opinion as it applies to him is incredibly deluded due to a combination of his own ego defense mechanisms, and because those around him understand that the way to keep him happy and engaged is to constantly assure him how great and popular he is. But you should never make the mistake of thinking he doesn't care what the public thinks, because in fact he cares very deeply. And when public opinion starts to turn sharply against him and his policies, there are still people with the capacity to get his ear who will tell him that and can convince him to change course.
 
rodoheel said:
I think Miller's record of posting about these incidents is contrary to what you're saying here. He wants ordinary citizens to be afraid for their lives if they're in the vicinity of ICE so that they will stay away from ICE and not try to protect vulnerable communities against its aggression and hooliganism. And one way to make them afraid for their lives is for them to get shot by ICE.
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I don’t believe in “evil” but Miller has given me cause to revisit the concept. He’s a rabid sociopath and devoid of any redeeming quality.
 
superrific said:
In fairness to Pence, he did run for president in the anti-Trump lane of the GOP (more or less), so he at least tried to do something. And Murkowski also tries to do things on occasion. In my view, Collins is year in, year out the MVP of the deeply concerned faction. I could be persuaded otherwise.
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Collins and Murkowski are soul sisters. I think history will show that they only vote against Trump when they have permission to do so if their votes don't defeat the passage of Trump led measures or cabinet and judicial appointments.

Pence announce a run for president in the upcoming 2024 but dropped out before the GQP primaries, and he was gladly Trump's lapdog in Trump's first term until Trump tacitly approved of his supporters' threats to hang him in the J6 insurrection.
 
I love how people say it's organized left wing agitators that are on our streets. As if all 10s of thousands of us who were out there Friday in -15 weather were paid protestors. Yeah, we're organized, trying to protect our friends and neighbors. I have friends and neighbors who are out there, seeing other friends and neighbors, on the streets, because their friends and neighbors are getting murdered and kidnapped, be it people with a pending asylum case, documented immigrants, or US citizens. Every time someone mentions stupid shit like "leftist groups" it becomes clear they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

But yeah, we're organized.
 
rodoheel said:
Do you think it was a good thing for the many citizens who participated in the Underground Railroad to transport and hide escaped slaves in violation of the law and in defiance of local, state, and federal authorities?

Do you think it was a good thing for many citizens across Germany and the rest of Europe to shelter their Jewish friends and neighbors in defiance of German law and in opposition to the authorities?

Do you think it was a good idea for the Civil Rights-era protestors to stand in defiance of the state and local authorities who turned dogs and water hoses on them?

Is there seriously no situation where you would intervene if you saw something unjust happening, even if under color of law? I suppose that says a lot about your personal character.
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In principle, yes those were all good interventions. In all those situations, at least where laws are being broken, those involved wouldn't be surprised if they were arrested if caught.

I'm thinking of the visibly concerning events where things were unfolding slowly enough that someone could intervene. George Floyd and Rodney King.

In both cases, those watching were likely concerned and would like to do something. In both cases, no, I would not support citizens intervening. We can't live in a country where citizens could legally, for example, pull police off of George Floyd or try to get between police and Rodney King.

That would be a recipe for the breakdown of law and order.
 


“But Americans do no have a constitutional right to impede or obstruct lawful law enforcement operations. That is actually a crime and it’s something we’ve actually seen take place in the streets of Minneapolis which again is leading to these dangerous circumstances …”
 
Jetson said:
I love how people say it's organized left wing agitators that are on our streets. As if all 10s of thousands of us who were out there Friday in -15 weather were paid protestors. Yeah, we're organized, trying to protect our friends and neighbors. I have friends and neighbors who are out there, seeing other friends and neighbors, on the streets, because their friends and neighbors are getting murdered and kidnapped, be it people with a pending asylum case, documented immigrants, or US citizens. Every time someone mentions stupid shit like "leftist groups" it becomes clear they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

But yeah, we're organized.
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Thank you (and your friends and neighbors) for answering the call.
 
finesse said:
Not nearly so much as Christian Nationalists. It's within our framework for socialists and Marxists to participate without violating the Constitution. Almost all the rightist agendas do involve un constitutional stances. The extreme Christian (lol) organizations rightly belong on a list of subversive groups and membership should make you ineligible to get a security clearance.
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You are excellent at whataboutism. Do you see people as socialist and marxist, who wish to change our fundamental way of life, as anti american or not? I didn't say they didn't have a right to their views. I don't really expect a straight answer because I believe that is hard for you.
 
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