—> ICE / Immigration / Nation grapples with ICE killings

[Callatoroy]

I dont even attempt to reconcile anything in this nation with fairness. If fairness existed, 99% of those with 8 figure bank accounts would be executed in the street tomorrow. If fairness existed, we would give every snatch of land on the continental US back to native Americans.

And no...I do not believe that importing a HUGE increase in the labor pool that produces housing has exacerbated a housing shortage. Nor do I believe that reducing that labor pool will lead to an improvement in housing availability.

Would you classify yourself as a socialist then given your disdain for michael jordan, steven spielburg, and people like eddie smith jr.?
I was talking about fairness to those who want to come here for a better life, who are and have been trying the right way and didn't say "fuck it" to our laws. Those who didn't try to jump the line.

Common sense would tell you if 10 million people weren't here illegally that the supply of housing would increase which would affect affordability.

 

[mpaer]

I don’t think people are saying the mere deportation of illegal immigrants is cruel. At least I wouldn’t say that.
But much of what ICE and DHS is doing since Trump came into power is definitely cruel.

And like murdering 2 citizens?

 

[ChileG]

And like murdering 2 citizens?

Or arresting and deporting people who are “doing it the right way,” and dozens of other examples documented on this thread.

 

[Callatoroy]

I don’t think people are saying the mere deportation of illegal immigrants is cruel. At least I wouldn’t say that.
But much of what ICE and DHS is doing since Trump came into power is definitely cruel.

Where do you personally draw the line on deportations? What is your opinion on where this issue will be 5 years from now?

 

[1moretimeagain]

In his congressional testimony today, the head of ICE said they have deported 475,000 people in the past year. With an ICE budget in 2025 of $29 billion, that’s $61,000 spent per immigrant deported.

He also said agents are facing the deadliest environment in ICE’s history. It’s impressive that the deadliest period is one for which there were zero deaths.

 

[ChileG]

Where do you personally draw the line on deportations? What is your opinion on where this issue will be 5 years from now?

When we stop treating good people in a humane way would be one way to put it.
No offense meant with this next answer, but how the hell would I know what this will be like in 5 years? I am not sure we will even recognize the USA anymore in five years.

 

[wmheel1287]

Would you classify yourself as a socialist then given your disdain for michael jordan, steven spielburg, and people like eddie smith jr.?
I was talking about fairness to those who want to come here for a better life, who are and have been trying the right way and didn't say "fuck it" to our laws. Those who didn't try to jump the line.

Common sense would tell you if 10 million people weren't here illegally that the supply of housing would increase which would affect affordability.

No, I am not a socialist. Note that I am not the one trying to reconcile fair. Thats you. I am saying that fair doesnt exist in American society, not advocating for some specific placement of it.

There are PLENTY of folks who have been trying to do it the right way who become what you would casually term an illegal immigrant through flaws in the process and not an intent of their own to violate the law.

And no, common sense does not dictate that removing 10 million people would have positive effects on housing availability when those 10 million are hugely responsible for the input of new housing. It could EASILY be a net negative on both availability and affordability to remove the engine that drives construction.

 

[Callatoroy]

And like murdering 2 citizens?

Sincere question - How do you reconcile that when faced with American citizens killed by illegal immigrants? Isn't there some consideration for those victims as well? RG and Pretti intentionally involved themselves in a chaotic situation. Pretti's family acknowledged they were fearful for his safety given his radical behavior leading up to his death. The families and victims of those killed by illegal immigrants didn't. That in no way justifies killing RG and Pretti but they are held to a different standard by the left than victims of illegal immigrant crimes. It's hard to argue tragedy on one side and not acknowledge the tragedy on the other.

 

[Callatoroy]

No, I am not a socialist. Note that I am not the one trying to reconcile fair. Thats you. I am saying that fair doesnt exist in American society, not advocating for some specific placement of it.

There are PLENTY of folks who have been trying to do it the right way who become what you would casually term an illegal immigrant through flaws in the process and not an intent of their own to violate the law.

And no, common sense does not dictate that removing 10 million people would have positive effects on housing availability when those 10 million are hugely responsible for the input of new housing. It could EASILY be a net negative on both availability and affordability to remove the engine that drives construction.

Is it correct to say you only believe in the concept of fairness if nothing is ever unfair? Because something unfair happened 200 years ago the concept should be abandoned? I don't believe you reward people for unlawful acts at the expense of those who are acting legally, especially when you can control it. Guess we just disagree.

Those 10 million are already living in housing. They aren't living in tents while they are building their homes. So those houses are already built and would be available. Deporting them won't stop housing construction. We will continue to build. Legal immigrants will take the place of illegal immigrants.

 

[finesse]

Would you classify yourself as a socialist then given your disdain for michael jordan, steven spielburg, and people like eddie smith jr.?
I was talking about fairness to those who want to come here for a better life, who are and have been trying the right way and didn't say "fuck it" to our laws. Those who didn't try to jump the line.

Common sense would tell you if 10 million people weren't here illegally that the supply of housing would increase which would affect affordability.

Not when 5 million of them were involved in building the houses. Who's going to do it now? AI ain't shingling any roofs.

 

[Callatoroy]

When we stop treating good people in a humane way would be one way to put it.
No offense meant with this next answer, but how the hell would I know what this will be like in 5 years? I am not sure we will even recognize the USA anymore in five years.

No offense taken. That's why I asked your opinion.

So you don't see deporting someone here illegally necessarily as inhumane, but rather how that deportation is carried out? Not trying to put words in your mouth just trying to see if I understood your comment.

 

[wmheel1287]

Is it correct to say you only believe in the concept of fairness if nothing is ever unfair? Because something unfair happened 200 years ago the concept should be abandoned? I don't believe you reward people for unlawful acts at the expense of those who are acting legally, especially when you can control it. Guess we just disagree.

Those 10 million are already living in housing. They aren't living in tents while they are building their homes. So those houses are already built and would be available. Deporting them won't stop housing construction. We will continue to build. Legal immigrants will take the place of illegal immigrants.

Most of those folks are living in housing that is of such low quality and such high density that it wouldn't make any dofference at all on the demand side while taking a huge chunk out of the supply side. Hell, it already is. Housing starts are at their lowest levels in a very long time and labor shortage/concern is the primary driver.

And I do not for the life of me understand your fascination with the word fair. Nothing is fair in America. Not one single thing.

It is not fair that I was born to a 2 parent household with solid jobs while others are born into squalor and no parenting. It is not fair that people like the Trumps routinely profit from being awful. It is not fair that little kids get cancer. Fairness is not an achievable policy goal. Policy should be centered around what is best for society overall while balancing the rights of individuals.

 

[Calheel]

Not when 5 million of them were involved in building the houses. Who's going to do it now? AI ain't shingling any roofs.

Maybe not today. But soon.

 

[StrangePackage]

Sincere question - How do you reconcile that when faced with American citizens killed by illegal immigrants? Isn't there some consideration for those victims as well? RG and Pretti intentionally involved themselves in a chaotic situation. Pretti's family acknowledged they were fearful for his safety given his radical behavior leading up to his death. The families and victims of those killed by illegal immigrants didn't. That in no way justifies killing RG and Pretti but they are held to a different standard by the left than victims of illegal immigrant crimes. It's hard to argue tragedy on one side and not acknowledge the tragedy on the other.

This would be a really good argument if illegal immigrants were purported to have "total immunity" and the government actively hindered the investigation of their victims' deaths and the prosecution of their killers.

Like, really good.

 

[Callatoroy]

Not when 5 million of them were involved in building the houses. Who's going to do it now? AI ain't shingling any roofs.

Just had a new roof put on a couple of weeks ago. I knew the owner of the company and asked him how it was affecting him. He said not at all because he saw it coming a few years ago and started e-verifing and has no problem getting legal labor. There isn't a shortage of legal immigrants to take the jobs of any illegal immigrants that may be deported in my area. Can't speak for other areas, but business won't stop. They will adapt. Any successful business owner knows that.

 

[finesse]

Just had a new roof put on a couple of weeks ago. I knew the owner of the company and asked him how it was affecting him. He said not at all because he saw it coming a few years ago and started e-verifing and has no problem getting legal labor. There isn't a shortage of legal immigrants to take the jobs of any illegal immigrants that may be deported in my area. Can't speak for other areas, but business won't stop. They will adapt. Any successful business owner knows that.

Sure, people have to have their services. It's the people whose jobs take longer and cost more that will pay.

 

[Jetson]

Sincere question - How do you reconcile that when faced with American citizens killed by illegal immigrants? Isn't there some consideration for those victims as well? RG and Pretti intentionally involved themselves in a chaotic situation. Pretti's family acknowledged they were fearful for his safety given his radical behavior leading up to his death. The families and victims of those killed by illegal immigrants didn't. That in no way justifies killing RG and Pretti but they are held to a different standard by the left than victims of illegal immigrant crimes. It's hard to argue tragedy on one side and not acknowledge the tragedy on the other.

The consideration for those victims is that the killers were tried, convicted, sentenced, deported, etc. Which is what should happen, and no one is denying that. No one is denying any tragedy.

Let me know when the murdering assholes in my city are tried and convicted of murder.

Otherwise, continue constructing your favorite strawmen. The difference is YOU are holding the killers to different standards.

 

[superrific]

Just had a new roof put on a couple of weeks ago. I knew the owner of the company and asked him how it was affecting him. He said not at all because he saw it coming a few years ago and started e-verifing and has no problem getting legal labor. There isn't a shortage of legal immigrants to take the jobs of any illegal immigrants that may be deported in my area. Can't speak for other areas, but business won't stop. They will adapt. Any successful business owner knows that.

What a coincidence! Kudos to the roofers for working through the snow and ice and cold. What better time for a new roof? And good thing the owner answered truthfully! It would have been idiotic for him to tell you that he employs people without work authorization, so fortunately he said something different. Roofing, of course, has to be done by immigrants which is why you want to replace undocumented immigrants with visa holders. Fortunately, there are so many visa holders idling around just waiting for deportations to find work!

 

[superrific]

The consideration for those victims is that the killers were tried, convicted, sentenced, deported, etc. Which is what should happen, and no one is denying that. No one is denying any tragedy.

Let me know when the murdering assholes in my city are tried and convicted of murder.

Otherwise, continue constructing your favorite strawmen. The difference is YOU are holding the killers to different standards.

This is a man who doesn't understand basic ideas like crime rates and stereotyping. You'd be better off arguing with an elderberry.

 

[ChileG]

So you don't see deporting someone here illegally necessarily as inhumane, but rather how that deportation is carried out?

not just how deportations are carried out but also a whole lot more.

To get an idea, you can search my name on this thread and look for comments made by me where I say, “evil and unAmerican.” I feel like I have made that comment dozens of times of this thread. Then read the articles I am referring to.

For example, ICE grabbing an American citizen teenager (because he was brown, of course) and beating the shit out of him (a child) and then dumping him on the winter streets of Minnesota alone and with no way to get home once they realized he was a citizen. One example of dozens or more in this thread.