If Trump Wins

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if we still had the EC as many originally conceived of it - a group of informed people who would themselves pick the president - then yes, Trump would be the kind of person we'd expect them to stop. But it's been like 200 years since any state selected electors by any means other than the popular vote in their state.

I am confident that the Framers would be shocked at the fact that we allow voting by every single citizen over 18, regardless of race, gender, or landowning status. Something like that certainly would have been inconceivable in the 18th century.
I tend to agree with your second paragraph. "Back in the day", voting was done more at a household level, presumably ultimately decided by the head of the household, and was only allowed by those who had skin in the game, i.e. landowners.
 
was only allowed by those who had skin in the game, i.e. landowners.
If you think that only landowners had "skin in the game" as far as the direction of the country . . . well, not only are you bad at political theory, but you don't understand much economics either. We knew that of course.
 
The electoral college exists for a number of reasons. One of them, it has been said, is to prevent the uninformed masses from electing a truly unscrupulous and dangerous person.

Has anyone here ever seen Trump as the type of person that the EC was meant to stop?
No, that's not why the electoral college exists. It's not at all why the electoral college exists. Here's how you know that: when the EC was created, no state used any EC-type structure in their own politics. None went to an EC structure after ratification. There was every bit as much danger of the uninformed masses electing dangerous people in state government, and state government was a much bigger % of government at the time.

The EC was just a negotiation between states who were scared of each other, over several issues including but not limited to slavery. And the motivating factor was distrust between states, which is why they all wanted a seat at the table. There were 13 states back then. If we could go back in time and show the Framers our presidential elections today, where a couple of states decide election after election, and those states' votes are determined largely by uninformed or low info voters, they would not have designed the EC the way they did. And no jokes please about the time travel paradox because that's just boring.
 
Jefferson thought the Constitution should be amended or rewritten every 20 years by a new generation. Too bad this was never given much considerstion let alone enacted. Might have made for more incremental changes, less chaos, than the current amendment law.
My personal opinion is that there will never again be a constitutional amendment unless/until we have some sort of major crisis/collapse/sea change in American politics.
 
My personal opinion is that there will never again be a constitutional amendment unless/until we have some sort of major crisis/collapse/sea change in American politics.
While I agree with this in general, I'd make an exception for presidential immunity. Once Trump is gone from the stage, Republicans might figure out that presidential immunity is in fact bad. That's especially true if there's Dem in office.

Nobody likes the immunity decision except Trump, and I suspect an amendment eliminating it would pass most states.

I suppose you could say that's how the system was designed, to make sure there's a lot of consensus before changing the constitution. I would respond (as would many here and elsewhere) that the Roberts court has been changing the constitution profoundly on its own accord. This amendment is only needed because the Supreme Court is filled with mendacious, hateful, senile idiots.
 
While I agree with this in general, I'd make an exception for presidential immunity. Once Trump is gone from the stage, Republicans might figure out that presidential immunity is in fact bad. That's especially true if there's Dem in office.

Nobody likes the immunity decision except Trump, and I suspect an amendment eliminating it would pass most states.

I suppose you could say that's how the system was designed, to make sure there's a lot of consensus before changing the constitution. I would respond (as would many here and elsewhere) that the Roberts court has been changing the constitution profoundly on its own accord. This amendment is only needed because the Supreme Court is filled with mendacious, hateful, senile idiots.
I'm skeptical whether Republicans would ever truly get to a point where they support limiting presidential immunity unless the party composition drastically changes. They have been steadily pushing for more executive authority and less executive accountability for decades.
 
No, that's not why the electoral college exists. It's not at all why the electoral college exists. Here's how you know that: when the EC was created, no state used any EC-type structure in their own politics. None went to an EC structure after ratification. There was every bit as much danger of the uninformed masses electing dangerous people in state government, and state government was a much bigger % of government at the time.

The EC was just a negotiation between states who were scared of each other, over several issues including but not limited to slavery. And the motivating factor was distrust between states, which is why they all wanted a seat at the table. There were 13 states back then. If we could go back in time and show the Framers our presidential elections today, where a couple of states decide election after election, and those states' votes are determined largely by uninformed or low info voters, they would not have designed the EC the way they did. And no jokes please about the time travel paradox because that's just boring.
At the time of the Philadelphia convention, no other country in the world directly elected its chief executive, so the delegates were wading into uncharted territory. Further complicating the task was a deep-rooted distrust of executive power. After all, the fledgling nation had just fought its way out from under a tyrannical king and overreaching colonial governors. They didn’t want another despot on their hands.

One group of delegates felt strongly that Congress shouldn’t have anything to do with picking the president. Too much opportunity for chummy corruption between the executive and legislative branches.

Another camp was dead set against letting the people elect the president by a straight popular vote. First, they thought 18th-century voters lacked the resources to be fully informed about the candidates, especially in rural outposts. Second, they feared a headstrong “democratic mob” steering the country astray. And third, a populist president appealing directly to the people could command dangerous amounts of power.

Out of those drawn-out debates came a compromise based on the idea of electoral intermediaries. These intermediaries wouldn’t be picked by Congress or elected by the people. Instead, the states would each appoint independent “electors” who would cast the actual ballots for the presidency.
 
That’s a primitive way of looking at it. All of the governed have skin in the game, even those who aren’t afforded the right to vote.
I agree that everyone has skin in the game and certainly decisions should be made by more than white, land-owning men, but it also may not be the best solution to have EVERY person over 18 permitted to vote. Just like you wouldn't want only white land owners determining the direction at a country/state/local level, you wouldn't want only the unemployed/retired determining the direction of the country.
 
I agree that everyone has skin in the game and certainly decisions should be made by more than white, land-owning men, but it also may not be the best solution to have EVERY person over 18 permitted to vote. Just like you wouldn't want only white land owners determining the direction at a country/state/local level, you wouldn't want only the unemployed/retired determining the direction of the country.
Is anyone advocating for "only the unemployed/retired determining the direction of the country"?

I agree that in theory it would be beneficial to have only those citizens who are informed and engaged vote in elections. But in practice trying to craft a practical or moral way to draw that line is impossible. So, everybody it is.
 
I agree that everyone has skin in the game and certainly decisions should be made by more than white, land-owning men, but it also may not be the best solution to have EVERY person over 18 permitted to vote. Just like you wouldn't want only white land owners determining the direction at a country/state/local level, you wouldn't want only the unemployed/retired determining the direction of the country.
If EVERY person is permitted to vote, how could there be a situation in which only the _____ demographic determines anything? Inclusion is the remedy for exclusion.
 
At the time of the Philadelphia convention, no other country in the world directly elected its chief executive, so the delegates were wading into uncharted territory. Further complicating the task was a deep-rooted distrust of executive power. After all, the fledgling nation had just fought its way out from under a tyrannical king and overreaching colonial governors. They didn’t want another despot on their hands.

One group of delegates felt strongly that Congress shouldn’t have anything to do with picking the president. Too much opportunity for chummy corruption between the executive and legislative branches.

Another camp was dead set against letting the people elect the president by a straight popular vote. First, they thought 18th-century voters lacked the resources to be fully informed about the candidates, especially in rural outposts. Second, they feared a headstrong “democratic mob” steering the country astray. And third, a populist president appealing directly to the people could command dangerous amounts of power.

Out of those drawn-out debates came a compromise based on the idea of electoral intermediaries. These intermediaries wouldn’t be picked by Congress or elected by the people. Instead, the states would each appoint independent “electors” who would cast the actual ballots for the presidency.
1. History.com is not a reputable source, any more than quantummechanics.com would be a go-to source for understanding beta decay.

2. Note that none of what you posted is responsive to the main critique of the Electoral College. Intermediaries could still be apportioned in direct proportion to population. It doesn't have to be winner take all (it still doesn't but almost always is).

The electoral college always was, and remains today, a way of allocating voter power between states, and a silly way of counting votes where margins within states don't matter. That's all.
 
I'm skeptical whether Republicans would ever truly get to a point where they support limiting presidential immunity unless the party composition drastically changes. They have been steadily pushing for more executive authority and less executive accountability for decades.
Well, I didn't see too many people anywhere in the legal community arguing in favor of Trump's immunity. Everyone assumed that the Court would deny it, because the underlying position was so radical and nonsensical.

But you're not wholly wrong. And maybe not even a little bit wrong.
 
1. History.com is not a reputable source, any more than quantummechanics.com would be a go-to source for understanding beta decay.

2. Note that none of what you posted is responsive to the main critique of the Electoral College. Intermediaries could still be apportioned in direct proportion to population. It doesn't have to be winner take all (it still doesn't but almost always is).

The electoral college always was, and remains today, a way of allocating voter power between states, and a silly way of counting votes where margins within states don't matter. That's all.
History.com is just the website for the History channel. Is there a specific reason that you view their site as unreliable?

BTW, I'm not saying concerns about information availability in rural areas was the only reason for the electoral college.
 
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At best, the History Channel is to history what Cliff Notes are to literature but less faithful to the source.
 
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