Isiah Thomas HATES Michael Jordan
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superrific
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1. Longevity may not be a primary component of greatness, but surely there is a point where extraordinary longevity matters. What if Lebron were to play to 50 (he won't; I think he retires this year)?
2. The more important point is that the league is far different. I don't know why people feel the need to opine on a GOAT. Why not Mikan? They literally had to change the layout of the court for him. Maybe it's because he wasn't playing against black players? Or the quality of play in the league was overall poor compared to today?
Well, then Wilt and Russell came along. Obviously black players had more opportunities than in Mikan's day. But the league was still small and the play wasn't very good. So at some point we decided that they don't count either. Wilt's stats were absolute monsters.
So then MJ comes along and the league was better. But there were still no international players to speak of, the three point shot had not yet been exploited, and there was exactly one three-and-D player in the league (that I know of at least: Michael Cooper). Centers stayed in the paint. Defenders stuck with their man, meaning they could be rested on occasion during the game. Zone defenses were not allowed.
The league is much better today than during the 90s. 2015-25 NBA > 1980s-90s NBS > 1960s NBA, and by about equal margins. So if we're going to reject Wilt in favor of MJ, why not reject MJ for the same reason?
Or maybe we should just admit that comparisons across eras isn't feasible and talk about GOAG -- Greatest of a Generation.
3. I always get the feeling that UNC fans will never, almost as a matter of blind faith, admit any player was better than MJ. Wemby has the ability to put everyone to shame if he can stay healthy. Of course, it should be no knock on MJ, Lebron, Steph or anyone else that they aren't as good as a 7'4" alien who can literally kick basketballs stuck in the net.
What would Wemby have to do to surpass MJ? Win 6 championships? That's basically impossible now. MJ had the advantage of playing in an era with a pliable salary cap and long-term contracts. Today, any team would be hard pressed to keep Pippen AND Jordan around and also surround them with enough talent to win. Moreover, there were plenty of teams who sucked because they were saddled with terrible contracts. Like when Vin Baker became an alcoholic in his first year of a 7 year deal. Or Shawn Kemp got fat during the work stoppage. There are terrible contracts today but they usually last a year or two.
And the average quality of player is so much higher than it was. The competition is too fierce for anyone to win 6 in 8 years. MJ couldn't do it.
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It ain't like MJ is a prince in his personal life.
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I weight peak over longevity, personally, but also think you have to factor in both when discussing historical greatness. MJ's peak was better than anyone, and his 6-0 record in Finals with 6 Finals MVPs will never be beaten. But Lebron's peak - which came well before the "pace and space" revolution - is also historically insane (in a 5-year stretch from 2008-2013 he had 4 MVPs, 3 Finals appearances, 2 titles, 2 Finals MVPs, and if you like advanced stats he led the league in PER, win shares, WS/48, BPM, and VORP every single one of those years), and he absolutely deserves credit for the fact that he's maintained such an incredibly high level of play despite such an incredibly heavy load (most minutes played in history, most playoff games played in history, most total games between regular season/playoffs in history). He's been so good, for so long, that everyone has essentially become numb to his greatness.
Tl;dr: I think the argument that Jordan is the GOAT over him is an easier case to make, but I also think Lebron has a lot more than longevity and counting stats that make him great. I think it's easier to make a case for Lebron as #1 than to make a case for anyone else as #2.
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I think this is a great, great post and was what I would have said (and more) about MJ vs LBJ.
I would say that one thing we're going to have to look at - in a few years if things stay as they are going now, if not already - is the career of Nikola Jokic. He's doing things over multiple seasons that no one player has really thought about doing and is being used in a way that other players haven't previously been used. It's led to a case where his individual stats - both counting and advanced - are absolutely insane.
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superrific
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Well, part of the issue now is that the NBA has basically stopped calling offensive fouls, and the gather step rule has made legal what used to be considered traveling. So it's a different game.
Jokic is obviously really good but rebounding numbers can occasionally lie. Jason Kidd used to get lots of rebounds but a lot of them were basically uncontested -- his teammates would let him get rebounds either because he wanted triple doubles and he pulled rank, or because it was helpful to get the ball in the hands of the PG as quickly as possible. From what I've seen Jokic gets a fair amount of those 'gift rebounds' -- i.e. when a teammate could get the rebound but lets Jokic get it instead. Again, that's in part because he's such a good passer, but this tendency essentially overcounts his contributions. Gives him a 2 for 1.
I think it's going to be really hard to compare stats from this era to the past, because of the way the games are called. SGA is a really good player but I get the feeling that he would be maybe all-star quality in the past. He pushes off constantly, dives into fouls and gets all the calls, and travels. He's like if 2005 finals DWade was a whole season. And Doncic of course is really great but he does so much bully ball.
superrific
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I saw a highlight of him the other day throwing a lob pass for an alley-oop. The play was completed but it wasn't a good pass -- it was too high. I'm like, "you're not throwing to yourself dude."
Sometimes when you're that exceptional, it's hard to remember what mere mortals can do.
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If Jokic retired tomorrow, he would already have arguably the greatest offensive peak of any player in the sport. He's led the league in most of the advanced states for the last five seasons, just like that Lebron stretch. But the fact that he only has one title and has never made an all-defensive team will mean he's probably more likely to be in "offensive GOAT" than "overall GOAT" discussions. If he wins 2+ titles in the next 4 years, we may need to reassess, but it will be interesting to see how his body holds up in the 30s.
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Bigs23
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It is. See.
Bigs23
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The best ability is availability. LeBron has had more "great" seasons than MJ did.
That being said I have it MJ-1, LeBron-2
Bigs23
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He is amazing.
bridgetender
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I don't think this is true. LeBron isn't a compiler. He's just had a historically great career.
I am 47 so I watched both play in their primes. I believe Jordan was the better individual player, but LeBron's impacted the teams he was on more.
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This dude is the biggest hater. He's like... the Michael Jordan of haters.
Poor guy, I can't imagine putting that much effort into hating anyone. Life's too short, let it go.
Isaiah hated Jordan long before the Dream Team. People forget that Isaiah is from Chicago and generally felt that it was his city, despite spurring DePaul and leaving to go to Indiana.
Note that DePaul was a powerhouse at the time, Thomas' friend Mark Aguirre was a year ahead (first overall pick in 81) and Terry Cummings (2nd overall pick in 82) would have been in IT's class. Thomas was picked 2nd overall in 81. Even without Thomas, DePaul was ranked #1 at some point during both of Thomas' college seasons.
After Jordan was drafted by the Bulls and broke out, Thomas was visiting home and a close relative, I think a nephew, was wearing a Jordan Bulls jersey instead of a Thomas Piston's jersey. At least that is the story John Salley told. Salley also says that Jordan had nothing to do with Thomas being off the Dream Team, it was Magic.
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I love LeBron. Love his game. He plays like that in Karl Malone’s physique. He gives MJ a run for GOAT but moving around a lot undermined that (building teams repeatedly and maybe because he played with some other HOF guys in Miami).
It is a reasonable debate. LeBron has the Kareem longevity angle. I get it even if I don’t see him as topping MJ. But KD and Seth???
I’ll always hate Thomas for ‘81 AND the Pistons (Jordan Rules), so yeah, I was going to react negatively. But KD and Seth???? In love ‘em both but come ON.
whatntarnation
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