Israel Hamas War | Ceasefire Deal between Israel & Hamas

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2ManyBlueCups said:
The blockade was indeed triggered by terrorism. Hamas was a terrorist group that had conducted numerous suicide bombings and terrorist attacks aimed at Israeli civilians prior to their election in 2007. The fact that a known international terrorist group that has sworn to kill Israeli citizens was elected to govern Israel's neighbor was what triggered the blockade. Israel can't be blamed for not allowing Hamas free access to continue to slaughter teenage Israeli girls at dance parties, for example. And Hamas lived up to expectations by diverting international aid to build tunnels, hide weapons, and launch thousands of missiles at Israeli cities. If the blockade had not been in place, it is likely that Hamas's attacks would have been far more severe. That's why the best thing for Palestinians and Israelis alike is for Hamas to be removed from the equation in Gaza. As the NYT article I posted on a previous page has shown, it looks like this war is close to accomplishing exactly that.
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This site has data from casualties and injuries from both sides between Jan 2008 until Aug 2024 (but doesn't include data from Oct 7 or after because they are still verifying it . United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

Palestinians: 7,001 deaths, 158,632 injured

Israelis: 337 deaths (146 soldiers), 6,465 injured

From those numbers, you say that Israel is the victim of terrorism, but the Palestinians aren't?? Numbers don't lie
 
superrific said:
Basically none of this is true, especially the idea that Hamas' attacks would have been more severe if not for the blockade. That's just not how things work. One way to know that you're wrong is to understand that the casualties on O7 substantially exceeded the death toll of ALL Palestinian terrorism in the first decade of this century and I think it was greater than all Palestinian terrorism ever (though I'm not sure about that). The blockade didn't prevent attacks. It prompted them. When people have no future, they are much more eager to sign up for dangerous activities like drug smuggling, armed conflict or suicide bombings. When they have nothing else to do, they can afford to spend their time in military training.

It's not a coincidence that paramilitary activity across the globe occurs almost exclusively in poor places, and especially places subject to foreign domination.
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All of it is true. You don't think that making it harder for terrorists to gain entry into your country makes it harder for those terrorists to commit attacks there? Physical barriers are not 100% foolproof but they are very effective. The bottom line is that Hamas, an international terrorist group, committed numerous terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians before Hamas was elected to govern Gaza. Israel's blockade of a terrorist organization did not force what was already a terrorist organization to become a terrorist organization. Hamas already was what it was. Israel's blockade simply made it harder for Hamas to pursue its stated goal of killing Israeli civilians. How many Hamas-led terror attacks occurred in Israel between 2007 (when the blockade was implemented) and 10/7? Far less than occurred beforehand.
 
RaiGuy said:
This site has data from casualties and injuries from both sides between Jan 2008 until Aug 2024 (but doesn't include data from Oct 7 or after because they are still verifying it . United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

Palestinians: 7,001 deaths, 158,632 injured

Israelis: 337 deaths (146 soldiers), 6,465 injured

From those numbers, you say that Israel is the victim of terrorism, but the Palestinians aren't?? Numbers don't lie
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How many of those Palestinian deaths were combatants? The fact is that Israel has invested heavily in protecting its population (see: the Iron Dome). Israel's casualty count would be far higher had they not done so. Hamas has invested heavily in launching thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians that are routinely shot down by the Iron Dome. Hamas has also openly stated that it doesn't value Palestinian lives as anything more than cannon fodder to help in its propaganda campaign. The difference in casualty counts can be explained largely by the fact that Israel values its citizens while Hamas does not.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
How many of those Palestinian deaths were combatants? The fact is that Israel has invested heavily in protecting its population (see: the Iron Dome). Israel's casualty count would be far higher had they not done so. Hamas has invested heavily in launching thousands of missiles at Israeli civilians that are routinely shot down by the Iron Dome. Hamas has also openly stated that it doesn't value Palestinian lives as anything more than cannon fodder to help in its propaganda campaign. The difference in casualty counts can be explained largely by the fact that Israel values its citizens while Hamas does not.
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You tell me how many are combatants. You can't because Israel doesn't know and just blindly bombs areas and hopes they hit a combatant. One simple number to look at is the percent of the killed/injured that are children. The Israeli ones are 8% (27 of them) of the killed and 8% (503) of the injured. For Palestinians, 22.5% (1,528) of the killed were children, and 21% (33,246) of the injured were children. Let me guess, that's Hamas's fault.

You think Hamas used billions of dollars to make homemade bombs? lol

No, the reason for the difference in casualty is because Israel uses an army to attack civilian houses. You keep regurgitating the same Israeli propaganda over and over without making any real sense.
 
RaiGuy said:
You tell me how many are combatants. You can't because Israel doesn't know and just blindly bombs areas and hopes they hit a combatant. One simple number to look at is the percent of the killed/injured that are children. The Israeli ones are 8% (27 of them) of the killed and 8% (503) of the injured. For Palestinians, 22.5% (1,528) of the killed were children, and 21% (33,246) of the injured were children. Let me guess, that's Hamas's fault.

You think Hamas used billions of dollars to make homemade bombs? lol

No, the reason for the difference in casualty is because Israel uses an army to attack civilian houses. You keep regurgitating the same Israeli propaganda over and over without making any real sense.
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Hamas has been caught strapping suicide bombs to 10 year-olds and sending them to Israeli cities. There are videos of 14 and 15 year old Hamas fighters with AKs engaging Israelis. When you disproportionately use child soldiers, you risk having a larger number of children killed. When you strategically launch rockets from hospitals and schools, you risk having children killed. Hamas knows this and welcomes it.

I think Hamas used portions of the foreign aid to build tunnels, to buy missiles which they have launched by the thousands into Israel, and to buy weapons. Hamas's leaders have also used this money to buy Ferraris and luxury condos in Qatar, where they live lavishly.
 
TarSpiel said:
Ya think? What was your first clue, Sherlock?

What's your hot take on why 98% of Palestinians are *not* members of Hamas?
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What's your hot take on why the residents of Gaza voted Hamas into power and recent polls have indicated that the overwhelming majority supported 10/7 and continue to support Hamas?
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
What's your hot take on why the residents of Gaza voted Hamas into power and recent polls have indicated that the overwhelming majority supported 10/7 and continue to support Hamas?
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Answer the question I asked, and then I'll respond to this.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Hamas has been caught strapping suicide bombs to 10 year-olds and sending them to Israeli cities. There are videos of 14 and 15 year old Hamas fighters with AKs engaging Israelis. When you disproportionately use child soldiers, you risk having a larger number of children killed. When you strategically launch rockets from hospitals and schools, you risk having children killed. Hamas knows this and welcomes it.

I think Hamas used portions of the foreign aid to build tunnels, to buy missiles which they have launched by the thousands into Israel, and to buy weapons. Hamas's leaders have also used this money to buy Ferraris and luxury condos in Qatar, where they live lavishly.
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you're saying they sent 1,528 child suicide bombers?? GTFOH

All you have to do is research and you will see where the massacres happen. Spoiler alert, they are 99% from Israeli bombs.
 
RaiGuy said:
you're saying they sent 1,528 child suicide bombers?? GTFOH

All you have to do is research and you will see where the massacres happen. Spoiler alert, they are 99% from Israeli bombs.
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Can you highlight where in the post you quoted I said they sent 1,528 child suicide bombers? It seems as if you read one sentence and stopped reading afterwards.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Can you highlight where in the post you quoted I said they sent 1,528 child suicide bombers? It seems as if you read one sentence and stopped reading afterwards.
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I read where you are justifying children being slaughtered because you've seen images of Hamas using children.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
What's your hot take on why the residents of Gaza voted Hamas into power and recent polls have indicated that the overwhelming majority supported 10/7 and continue to support Hamas?
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What's your hot take about 65% of Israelis opposing criminal prosecution of soldiers that rape Palestinian prisoners? And around 95% supporting Israel's genocide and many saying it's not harsh enough?
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
Why are only a fraction of a percent of Americans members of the military? Simply supporting Hamas doesn't make you a member of it.
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The degree to which Palestinians "support Hamas" is an open question. I assume most Palestinians support some things Hamas does, and don't support others. It's not a binary, either/or thing.

But for the last 20 years, everyone in Palestine has had the opportunity to become offical members of Hamas, and 98% have refused to do that. My question still remains, why do you think that is?

I understand you have very little knowledge of the historical or cultural situation over there - other than what you google on the fly - that you tend to process information into binaries like an insect does with pheromones, and what info you do have is filtered through extremely tendentious sources, so whatever answer you give is bound to be a hot take, but I'm nevertheless in your what your hot take is....why do the overwhelming majority of Palestinians refuse to join Hamas, for going on 20+ years now?
 
RaiGuy said:
I read where you are justifying children being slaughtered because you've seen images of Hamas using children.
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I'm condemning Hamas for using children as soldiers, and for intentionally placing children at risk. You are only seeing what you want to see.
 
RaiGuy said:
What's your hot take about 65% of Israelis opposing criminal prosecution of soldiers that rape Palestinian prisoners? And around 95% supporting Israel's genocide and many saying it's not harsh enough?
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I think that's wrong. See, it isn't hard to get away from the "my team is better than your team" mentality.
 
TarSpiel said:
The degree to which Palestinians "support Hamas" is an open question. I assume most Palestinians support some things Hamas does, and don't support others. It's not a binary, either/or thing.

But for the last 20 years, everyone in Palestine has had the opportunity to become offical members of Hamas, and 98% have refused to do that. My question still remains, why do you think that is?

I understand you have very little knowledge of the historical or cultural situation over there - other than what you google on the fly - that you tend to process information into binaries like an insect does with pheromones, and what info you do have is filtered through extremely tendentious sources, so whatever answer you give is bound to be a hot take, but I'm nevertheless in your what your hot take is....why do the overwhelming majority of Palestinians refuse to join Hamas, for going on 20+ years now?
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I've actually spent time over there. Have you? Pretending like you know anything about me is not a great way to make an argument. It makes me question the other things that you say.

What does "becoming an official member of Hamas" entail? Do they get ID cards? AK-47s? I'm sincerely asking.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I'm condemning Hamas for using children as soldiers, and for intentionally placing children at risk. You are only seeing what you want to see.
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I haven't seen you once condemn Israel killing Palestinian civilians, or even Palestinian children. You just find a way to justify it as collateral damage, or a part of war, or that the children deserved it because they are Hamas soldiers. All you want to hear is people condemning Hamas. I've condemned them killing civilians enough times and I'm done wasting my time.
 
RaiGuy said:
I haven't seen you once condemn Israel killing Palestinian civilians, or even Palestinian children. You just find a way to justify it as collateral damage, or a part of war, or that the children deserved it because they are Hamas soldiers. All you want to hear is people condemning Hamas. I've condemned them killing civilians enough times and I'm done wasting my time.
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I condemn the intentional killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF. I also condemn the killing of civilians that is caused by intentional recklessness by the IDF. However, I will say that the IDF cares more about Palestinian civilians than Hamas does. If Hamas chose to fight like Hezbollah, the civilian death toll in Gaza would be a fraction of what it currently is.
 
2ManyBlueCups said:
I condemn the intentional killing of Palestinian civilians by the IDF. I also condemn the killing of civilians that is caused by intentional recklessness by the IDF. However, I will say that the IDF cares more about Palestinian civilians than Hamas does. If Hamas chose to fight like Hezbollah, the civilian death toll in Gaza would be a fraction of what it currently is.
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There are some logistical and geographical challenges to your proposal. What forested mountain ranges would you propose Hamas use in Gaza?

I understand your larger point, but at a very practical level, any war waged from Gaza is going to be very different from any war waged from Southern Lebanon.
 
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