Israel Hamas War | Trump advocates “clean out” all Palestinians; New Constitutional Crisis in Israel

[Paine]

The policy of fence sitting? If I mis-characterized that please clarify.

You think the Biden admin was fence sitting in terms of the conflict…?

 

[BlooVooDoo]

I think Calheel is hitting the nail on the head. The protests were an expression of rage in the face of an administration that claimed to be of the left but continued killing children.

It reflects the dismal state of left politics in this country more than anything. There wasn’t any organizing principle behind the protests. See also: Occupy.

How’d that work out for them?

 

[Calheel]

Not at all, but what the fuck did they think a handful of college administrators were going to do to stop Israel? And once they started crossing the line from peaceful protests to vandalism and harassment, it was certain to become a campaign issue and most likely contributed to the red sweep. Anyone who genuinely cared about the Palestinians has to realize their situation is far, far worse now than it was when Biden was in office. FAFO.

I understand the thinking but I just don't think that is how protesters think. Did the hippies in 1968 accomplish anything with their Vietnam war protests? They got Nixon elected, who was even more pro-war than Humphrey. The young people who protest aren't like the old dudes who post on political message boards.

 

[wmheel1287]

I think Calheel is hitting the nail on the head. The protests were an expression of rage in the face of an administration that claimed to be of the left but continued killing children.

It reflects the dismal state of left politics in this country more than anything. There wasn’t any organizing principle behind the protests. See also: Occupy.

It also reflects a naivete that is almost beyond comprehension to sit out the election/work against Harris/vote for Trump (pick one) if Gaza was a driving concern. It's going to be yet another FAFO moment. And maybe it gets us closer to the left leaning party you seek, but it definitely will kill a LOT more Palestinians along the way. So, there's a price and those protesting, etc aren't the ones who will pay.

 

[Paine]

How’d that work out for them?

It didn’t. That’s the point of my post. There was no organized strategy behind these protests other than rage. Justified rage but unproductive rage. It doesn’t do anything to blame these powerless protestors for Harris’ loss other than make liberals feel better about themselves.

 

[Paine]

It also reflects a naivete that is almost beyond comprehension to sit out the election/work against Harris/vote for Trump (pick one) if Gaza was a driving concern. It's going to be yet another FAFO moment. And maybe it gets us closer to the left leaning party you seek, but it definitely will kill a LOT more Palestinians along the way. So, there's a price and those protesting, etc aren't the ones who will pay.

College students aren’t known for having great foresight. OTOH, every other avenue re: this issue has been tried. Protests were really the only option left for those trying to register their anger in some way.

That’s what happens when the party that is supposed to be of the left aids a fascist government in perpetrating a genocide. The Biden administration was completely unresponsive on this issue.

 

[StrangePackage]

College students aren’t known for having great foresight. OTOH, every other avenue re: this issue has been tried. Protests were really the only option left for those trying to register their anger in some way.

That’s what happens when the party that is supposed to be of the left aids a fascist government in perpetrating a genocide. The Biden administration was completely unresponsive on this issue.

It's very fortunate that when this leftist revolution happens, there will be no hard choices and no lesser evils.

 

[nycfan]

“… His statement could mark a dramatic shift in U.S. policy toward Palestinians under presidents of both parties. No recent White House has suggested the “long-term” departure of Palestinians from Gaza, which most U.S. presidents have seen as a part of an eventual Palestinian state.

… But on Sunday Trump officials suggested the U.S. and regional partners could provide guarantees the Palestinians would eventually be allowed to return, sketching out an assurance that appeared designed to make the idea more politically palatable to Arab states.

Officials have yet to spell out the precise parameters of the suggestion, including how the more than two million Palestinians in the enclave could be relocated and whether they might eventually fulfill their aspirations to fully govern their own territory. …”

 

[nycfan]

Continued

“… The idea was summarily dismissed by Jordan, which Trump has urged to accept refugees from Gaza temporarily or for the long term. It was also rejected by the Palestinian Authority, which governs most Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas.

“We call on the U.S. administration to halt such proposals, which align with Israeli plans and clash with the rights and free will of our people,” the U.S.-designated terrorist organization said in a statement.

But it was hailed by far-right Israeli politician Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has called for “voluntary migration” of Palestinians from the enclave and backs Israeli settlement there. …”

 

[Paine]

It's very fortunate that when this leftist revolution happens, there will be no hard choices and no lesser evils.

Believe me, I lament the state of left politics in this country more than anyone. It’s been deliberately neutered. The rise of protest politics seems to be a natural consequence of this vacuum.

There’s a reason I never got involved with those types of groups while on campus at UNC.

 

[Callatoroy]

Continued

“… The idea was summarily dismissed by Jordan, which Trump has urged to accept refugees from Gaza temporarily or for the long term. It was also rejected by the Palestinian Authority, which governs most Palestinians in the West Bank, and Hamas.

“We call on the U.S. administration to halt such proposals, which align with Israeli plans and clash with the rights and free will of our people,” the U.S.-designated terrorist organization said in a statement.

But it was hailed by far-right Israeli politician Itamar Ben-Gvir, who has called for “voluntary migration” of Palestinians from the enclave and backs Israeli settlement there. …”

This is one of many times when he just needs to keep his effing mouth shut. What possible good does it do for him to say that and what a bullshit thing for him to say. I can't see any way this would ever be a move toward peace for any substantial amount of time.

 

[SnoopRob]

Movements have strategies. Protests have emotion. The Gaza protests last year were not centrally coordinated and were not really strategic. You could say the same things about the 2020 George Floyd protests, too.

That doesn't mean there aren't organizers out there trying to capture the protest energy and redirect it into a movement. But by and large those organizers aren't calling the shots. It is simply a group zeitgeist (be it Tik Tok driven or not) that causes people to protest. They aren't making strategic political decisions. They are making emotional decisions.

You're correct that technically movements have strategies and protests often have a place in those strategies. You're wrong the protests are all about emotion.

The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a protest. I'm sure you wouldn't claim that it was just "emotion".

The biggest problem for the Palestinian protests weren't emotion, it was that those organizing them did so in an extremely poor way. The SJP were involved in a good number of them and they often pushed protests well into anti-Israel territory and, often, into what seemed to be anti-Jewish positions. They did not focus on the suffering of the Palestinians and instead attempted to defend the actions of the Hamas terrorists on October 7th. These were strategic failures and ones that made it easy for those supporting Israel to ignore the violations of Israel against the Palestinians.

The problems with the pro-Palestinian protests of 2023/4 weren't that they were completely unorganized, it's that the organizers didn't focus well on the issues that might have moved the public to support their aims and instead made statements and focused on issues that turned large swaths of the public against them.

 

[nycfan]

 

[SnoopRob]

College students aren’t known for having great foresight. OTOH, every other avenue re: this issue has been tried. Protests were really the only option left for those trying to register their anger in some way.

That’s what happens when the party that is supposed to be of the left aids a fascist government in perpetrating a genocide. The Biden administration was completely unresponsive on this issue.

Here we are again where the left in the US fucks up their operations, but it's ultimately the fault of moderate Dems that leftists aren't successful.

If the left can't even organize a protest that doesn't completely turn into a shitshow, why should anyone near the mainstream take the left seriously?

 

[Calheel]

You're correct that technically movements have strategies and protests often have a place in those strategies. You're wrong the protests are all about emotion.

The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a protest. I'm sure you wouldn't claim that it was just "emotion".

The biggest problem for the Palestinian protests weren't emotion, it was that those organizing them did so in an extremely poor way. The SJP were involved in a good number of them and they often pushed protests well into anti-Israel territory and, often, into what seemed to be anti-Jewish positions. They did not focus on the suffering of the Palestinians and instead attempted to defend the actions of the Hamas terrorists on October 7th. These were strategic failures and ones that made it easy for those supporting Israel to ignore the violations of Israel against the Palestinians.

The problems with the pro-Palestinian protests of 2023/4 weren't that they were completely unorganized, it's that the organizers didn't focus well on the issues that might have moved the public to support their aims and instead made statements and focused on issues that turned large swaths of the public against them.

I think one of the flaws of your thinking is that you are over weighting the role of organizers. Unless you think the CCP and Tik Tok are organizers. Yes, SJP glommed onto the protests and tried to raise its profile in the process. But I think you are greatly overstating the role of SJP, just as I would argue that BLM organizers had very little to do with the summer of 2020.

Also, I would say the initial Montgomery protests were very much emotion based. The SCLC came in and turned that initial emotion into a movement.

 

[SnoopRob]

“… His statement could mark a dramatic shift in U.S. policy toward Palestinians under presidents of both parties. No recent White House has suggested the “long-term” departure of Palestinians from Gaza, which most U.S. presidents have seen as a part of an eventual Palestinian state.

… But on Sunday Trump officials suggested the U.S. and regional partners could provide guarantees the Palestinians would eventually be allowed to return, sketching out an assurance that appeared designed to make the idea more politically palatable to Arab states.

Officials have yet to spell out the precise parameters of the suggestion, including how the more than two million Palestinians in the enclave could be relocated and whether they might eventually fulfill their aspirations to fully govern their own territory. …”

The article suggest that Trump's comments "stunned all sides", but I wonder how stunning it actually was to Israel's leadership?

It would certainly explain why they'd accept a ceasefire and hostage swap after holding out for so long if they knew that something like this would be suggested by Trump as the solution to the Palestinian issue.

 

[Callatoroy]

You think the Biden admin was fence sitting in terms of the conflict…?

I think they were trying to be supportive of both sides in different ways. I think biden was in a very difficult position and based on my personal opinions and moral views I'm not sure how he could have played it differently. In a war its hard to be neutral when you are as involved as we are with israel. trump won't have a difficult time with it and apparently sees some development possibilities. I don't think I was very vocal in my criticism of biden other than in his stalling of aid and in not managing the humanitarian aid we sent. So, does trying to militarily support israel in its just cause of eliminating hamas while criticizing the manner israel uses knowing that another method is likely to result in more of its soldiers deaths and treasure, and possibly result in not achieving its objective sitting on the fence?

 

[Paine]

Here we are again where the left in the US fucks up their operations, but it's ultimately the fault of moderate Dems that leftists aren't successful.

If the left can't even organize a protest that doesn't completely turn into a shitshow, why should anyone near the mainstream take the left seriously?

Yeah man, the Gaza protests are the “left in the U.S. fucking up their operations.” Get a grip. There is no operation. There is no left leadership in this country. There are disparate groups that perform disparate actions due to a lack of agency within our political system.

Vietnam protestors weren’t the reason Humphrey lost. It was the war.

 

[Paine]

I think they were trying to be supportive of both sides in different ways. I think biden was in a very difficult position and based on my personal opinions and moral views I'm not sure how he could have played it differently. In a war its hard to be neutral when you are as involved as we are with israel. trump won't have a difficult time with it and apparently sees some development possibilities. I don't think I was very vocal in my criticism of biden other than in his stalling of aid and in not managing the humanitarian aid we sent. So, does trying to militarily support israel in its just cause of eliminating hamas while criticizing the manner israel uses knowing that another method is likely to result in more of its soldiers deaths and treasure, and possibly result in not achieving its objective sitting on the fence?

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

 

[Callatoroy]

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

Public threats to withhold aid, being publicly critical of its methods of fighting hamas. When we make those comments publicly it sends a message.