Israel Hamas War | Trump advocates “clean out” all Palestinians; New Constitutional Crisis in Israel

[wmheel1287]

What actions did the Biden administration take that didn’t favor Israel in the conflict? Suspending shipments of 3,000 lb bombs?

You didn't ask me and i didn't think Biden did nearly enough to put Israel on a chain...but i think we all are about to find out what it looks like when the US goes whole hog in favoring Bibi and his monsters.

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

 

[SnoopRob]

I think one of the flaws of your thinking is that you are over weighting the role of organizers. Unless you think the CCP and Tik Tok are organizers. Yes, SJP glommed onto the protests and tried to raise its profile in the process. But I think you are greatly overstating the role of SJP, just as I would argue that BLM organizers had very little to do with the summer of 2020.

Also, I would say the initial Montgomery protests were very much emotion based. The SCLC came in and turned that initial emotion into a movement.

If you want to say that protests are animated by emotion, I would agree with you.

What I'm saying is that protests, planned well, can serve the purposes of those who engage in said protests. Yes, that takes organizers to oversee the protests, to share a well-planned message to the public about the protests, and to provide the protestors guidelines that keep the protests focused on that message. It's said planning that allows protests to channel the emotion of righteous indignation into an effective weapon to fight injustice.

The SJP did not "glom on" to the Palestinian protests, they had been organizing such protests to raise awareness regarding the plight of Palestinians long before 10/7 and they were the direct planners of many of the initial protests right after that event. Of course, the high profile of the 10/7 attacks and Israel's response brought a lot of new folks to these protests, but SJP was in a leadership role for the initial wave of these protests and the failures of the protests are directly related to statements and actions by SJP folks in directing these protests.

I think the BLM protests are a little different as BLM leaders did a decent job with their protest messaging and largely during their protest actions. BLM's problem was that other groups glommed onto (to reuse your phrase) the BLM protests who didn't share the goals of the movement and created chaos that undermined BLM's message.

 

[Paine]

Public threats to withhold aid, being publicly critical of its methods of fighting hamas. When we make those comments publicly it sends a message.

All that is window dressing when the “threats” aren’t followed through. You can draw as many lines in the sand as you like. It doesn’t matter if you keep letting them cross.

Nevermind that I can’t remember the administration threatening to withhold aid. I could be wrong, but it was mainly a few Democratic Senators and house members who said something about that.

 

[SnoopRob]

Yeah man, the Gaza protests are the “left in the U.S. fucking up their operations.” Get a grip. There is no operation. There is no left leadership in this country. There are disparate groups that perform disparate actions due to a lack of agency within our political system.

Vietnam protestors weren’t the reason Humphrey lost. It was the war.

It's hilarious that you blame everyone but the left for the left not being able to put forth and carry out a coherent plan to spread their message that the public will follow.

In your world, the left is NC State and the public is John Swofford, forever holding them down from their just rewards.

 

[SnoopRob]

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

This sentence should be stated before every conversation about Biden's admin and the Israel/Palestine issue.

The Biden administration may not have been completely pro-Palestine, but Trump is about to show us and the world what a fully pro-Israel policy from the US means for Israel's ability to continue oppressing and displacing Palestinians.

 

[RaiGuy]

You didn't ask me and i didn't think Biden did nearly enough to put Israel on a chain...but i think we all are about to find out what it looks like when the US goes whole hog in favoring Bibi and his monsters.

If you didn't recognize Biden’s actions as being at least somewhat in the best interests of Palestine, then i think Trump is about to illustrate that.

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

 

[finesse]

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

As unhappy a situation as it was., Biden didn't have the political power to do more than he did. He had limited power as it was because of the united Republican opposition and would lose Democratic support in any attempt to push back on Israel. I don't have your emotional investment so it's easier for me to accept that reality. I hate that we're so intertwined with them and their policies. I had hoped that if Harris won, we'd have a chance to push back.

Oh well.

 

[SnoopRob]

While Trump is a million times worse, I wouldn’t say that Biden did much in the best interest of Palestinians. In his last interview, he basically stated that Netanyahu was telling him they were basically planning to commit a genocide (comparing it to what the US did with the nuclear bombs) and Biden was fine with it. Again, I voted for Harris and know that Trump is basically Satan, but that doesn’t mean that Biden was good for Palestinians in this situation. He was just not as bad as Trump.

Biden's response was greatly, greatly hemmed in by both what Republicans and a few pro-Israel Dems in Congress would allow him to do and by what was at all possible to get Israel to agree to do. Within those parameters, I think that Biden did about as much as he could do and certainly prevented far more pro-Israel folks from being able to turn US policy in a completely pro-Israel direction.

You can probably reasonably say that Biden's actions toward the Palestinian issue was a "finger in the dike" response, but Biden's finger kept the dike from failing altogether. We're now about to see what it's like when Trump bulldozes the dike and the Palestinians are caught in a full on flood against them.

 

[RaiGuy]

Biden's response was greatly, greatly hemmed in by both what Republicans and a few pro-Israel Dems in Congress would allow him to do and by what was at all possible to get Israel to agree to do. Within those parameters, I think that Biden did about as much as he could do and certainly prevented far more pro-Israel folks from being able to turn US policy in a completely pro-Israel direction.

You can probably reasonably say that Biden's actions toward the Palestinian issue was a "finger in the dike" response, but Biden's finger kept the dike from failing altogether. We're now about to see what it's like when Trump bulldozes the dike and the Palestinians are caught in a full on flood against them.

Yeah, I agree. But whatever the reasons, the outcome wasn’t looking out for the Palestinians.

 

[nycfan]

 

[heelslegup]

Trump is not dumb enough to follow through with this and lose his Saudi Sugar Daddies. This whole horrific idea is just a long-held Gaza/WB ethnic cleansing wet dream of a small but well-connected group of extremist Israeli elected officials and settkers. Aside from Israel, no country in the Middle East will back somthing this outrageous. Neither will the majority of Israelis.

 

[Duke Mu]

Those people did not affect the outcome nor were they the reason she lost. Even if all of them voted for Harris, she would have still lost.

Sure. There was clear evidence of undervote with young people and the far left. All Harris needed was about another 1.5-2% in critical states.

 

[Duke Mu]

The undervote was real and devastating. This was in part a product of an inability of Harris to separate herself from Biden after the first few weeks of the campaign.

Biden's former campaign manager Jen O'Malley took over Kamala's campaign and put the brakes on. Harris and Walz started with populist momentum...then lost it.

She should have hired her own independent team.

'Damning' New Poll Shows Price Kamala Harris Paid for Backing Israeli Genocide in Gaza | Common Dreams

Vice President Kamala Harris' refusal to break with the Biden administration's support for Israel's assault on Gaza cost her millions of potential Democratic voters. Will the Democratic Party learn from this and listen to its voters who want leaders to oppose sending more weapons to Israel...

www.commondreams.org

 

[Duke Mu]

Trump is not dumb enough to follow through with this and lose his Saudi Sugar Daddies. This whole horrific idea is just a long-held Gaza/WB ethnic cleansing wet dream of a small but well-connected group of extremist Israeli elected officials and settkers. Aside from Israel, no country in the Middle East will back somthing this outrageous. Neither will the majority of Israelis.

Gaza will be seen as a major grifting opportunity for Trump.

 

[Duke Mu]

Yeah man, the Gaza protests are the “left in the U.S. fucking up their operations.” Get a grip. There is no operation. There is no left leadership in this country. There are disparate groups that perform disparate actions due to a lack of agency within our political system.

Vietnam protestors weren’t the reason Humphrey lost. It was the war.

Yeah - The situations couldn't be much more different. Biden and Blinken were negotiating for many months and had a clear peace plan.

 

[SmilingJack]

Is Trump going to give his Gaza plan naming rights?

 

[Calheel]

Sure. There was clear evidence of undervote with young people and the far left. All Harris needed was about another 1.5-2% in critical states.

Some truth to this.

Looking at the exit polling hosted on the Roper site:

2020: 18-29 demo was 17% of the vote and went 60-36 for Biden
2024: 18-29 demo was only 14% of the vote and went 54-43 for Harris

Doing the math, if the young people matched their turnout in 2024 with the same vote percentage, that would have been 4.5 million more votes, with 2.7 million for Harris and 1.6 million for Trump, a pickup of 1 .1 million votes, or .73% more total votes for Kamala. That would not have been enough to make up her 1.5% deficit in the national popular vote, and likely would not have been able to swing enough states to win the electoral college. It is a bit harder to know how the loss of the far left vote impacted the election.

How Groups Voted in 2020 | Roper Center for Public Opinion Research

DemographicGroupBidenTrumpSEXMen484553Women525742RACEWhite674158African-American138712Hispani

ropercenter.cornell.edu

How Groups Voted in 2024 | Roper Center for Public Opinion Research

DemographicGroupHarrisTrumpSEXMen474355Women535345RACEWhite714257African-American118613

ropercenter.cornell.edu

 

[Patb78]

Yup, and Kushner has been talking with developers to build beachfront resorts in Gaza for months.
This was Israel’s goal from the start. Demolish and depopulate Gaza to build settlements and access the natural gas underneath it. I’ve been saying this from the start that it was never about eliminating Hamas.

I think Trump’s own words prove it Rai.
The Palestinians remind me of our Native Americans. They were allowed to live on a land until the white man decided it was valuable. Then, they were forced off.

 

[Paine]

It's hilarious that you blame everyone but the left for the left not being able to put forth and carry out a coherent plan to spread their message that the public will follow.

In your world, the left is NC State and the public is John Swofford, forever holding them down from their just rewards.

The Democrats always seem to blame the left for their own failures as well. Guess it’s par for the course.

You’re literally doing it now by blaming powerless college protestors for the Democratic Party’s massive failure in 2024. In 2016, it was Jill Stein. In 2000 it was Nader.

Anyways, nowhere in my posts do I blame “the public” for holding the left down. Nice straw man though. In fact, I’ve been one of the only posters here to not blame the public for Trump’s victory. To say that I blame everyone but the left for the left’s failures is just a complete fabrication that’s divorced from anything approaching my politics, which you never actually engage with.

 

[Geisterfahrer]

Trump is not dumb enough to follow through with this and lose his Saudi Sugar Daddies. This whole horrific idea is just a long-held Gaza/WB ethnic cleansing wet dream of a small but well-connected group of extremist Israeli elected officials and settkers. Aside from Israel, no country in the Middle East will back somthing this outrageous. Neither will the majority of Israelis.

And yet Trump’s statements clearly kick the tires on annexation.