Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[ZenMode]

Literally the reason they haven't wiped out Gaza already is that they would lose all support in Europe and most of it in the US.

That is your opinion, not a fact.

The Israeli government has long been run by murderous maniacs. Indeed, Ariel Sharon presided over this:

Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"
In February 1983, an independent commission chaired by Irish diplomat Seán MacBride, assistant to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, concluded that the IDF, as the then occupying power over Sabra and Shatila, bore responsibility for the militia's massacre. The commission also stated that the massacre was a form of genocide. And in February 1983, the Israeli Kahan Commission found that Israeli military personnel had failed to take serious steps to stop the killings despite being aware of the militia's actions, and deemed that the IDF was indirectly responsible for the events,"

The Kahan report stating that Israel is "indirectly responsible" for what the Phalangist militia did 40+ years ago is some weak-ass evidence to support your assertion about what Israel wants to do today.

 

[superrific]

That is your opinion, not a fact.

The Kahan report stating that Israel is "indirectly responsible" for what the Phalangist militia did 40+ years ago is some weak-ass evidence to support your assertion about what Israel wants to do today.

Well, I was referring to the UN findings about genocide. But you missed the point, which was about Israeli leadership. Ariel Sharon was the person directly responsible for something the UN deemed to be genocide. Did that stop him from becoming prime minister? It did not.

I've long maintained that there was little difference in personality or world view between Milosevic and Sharon. The difference was in a) Israeli civil society and b) Israel's allies, both of which would prevent a full ethnic cleansing in the Jewish state. Well, the civil society guardrail is gone, so it's just allies.

Netanyahu has proven himself to be every bit the monster as Sharon. Not all Israelis are like that, and not even necessarily all Likud party either. But the most powerful parties in Israel are the extremist settler/hasidim parties that would order the napalming of the entire Gaza strip if they had the opportunity. And it's that right wing -- the same swamp from where Sharon emanated as PM -- that is causing this genocide right now.

 

[ZenMode]

They’re deliberately starving children.

The claims of Israel committing genocide started on 10/9/2023.

The claims on this forum, of genocide by Israel, also started loooong before the denial of aid.

 

[superrific]

The claims of Israel committing genocide started on 10/9/2023.

Except for that 1983 UN report literally quoted to you, which you dismissed as irrelevant today. Which is it?

But yes, what Israel has done in the past two years is genocidal to a far greater degree. Sharon presided over the Israeli version of a pogrom. Now they're expanding it to a Holocaust. Remember -- it took the Nazis a full decade before they started killing Jews en masse.

 

[ZenMode]

Except for that 1983 UN report literally quoted to you, which you dismissed as irrelevant today. Which is it?

What do you think? The event you referenced happened over 40 years ago was carried out by a group, Phalangist militia, that isn't associated with Israel. Israel, under the leadership at the time, which is not the leadership now, didn't actually carry out any of the atrocities and was only found to be "indirectly responsible" because they didn't stop it from happening. Do you think that says a lot about recent events?

But yes, what Israel has done in the past two years is genocidal to a far greater degree.

As long as you ignore that extremely low number of civilian deaths.....

Sharon presided over the Israeli version of a pogrom. Now they're expanding it to a Holocaust. Remember -- it took the Nazis a full decade before they started killing Jews en masse.

Well, Palestinian terrorists have been attacking Israel for a lot more than a decade and Israel hasn't committed any mass killings, yet. In fact, the population of Gaza has grown at 3x the world average.

 

[ZenMode]

oh, you mean like this?



GTFOH with your fake morality.

If you think 'forced deportation' is what Palestinians have in mind when talking about wiping out Israel, I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

 

[Duke Mu]

Could it be more obvious that Bibi and Putin have ZERO respect for Trump? Xi, LRM, EU, Iran scoff and sharpen their knives (watch out, Taiwan). No one is afraid of TACO Trump.

So, Trump will prey on the perceived weak: immigrants, disabled, old, young, international students, poor, educators, researchers instead.

He only punches down.

 

[RaiGuy]

If you think 'forced deportation' is what Palestinians have in mind when talking about wiping out Israel, I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

As usual, you keep detracting from the point and moving the goal posts. You were arguing how Israel morally superior, and then there are a shit load of examples of them saying/doing similar things to the things you criticize Hamas for, yet you deflect. If you criticize one, you should criticize both. As I stated earlier, both have 0 morality.

 

[Duke Mu]

What do you think? The event you referenced happened over 40 years ago was carried out by a group, Phalangist militia, that isn't associated with Israel. Israel, under the leadership at the time, which is not the leadership now, didn't actually carry out any of the atrocities and was only found to be "indirectly responsible" because they didn't stop it from happening. Do you think that says a lot about recent events?

As long as you ignore that extremely low number of civilian deaths.....

Well, Palestinian terrorists have been attacking Israel for a lot more than a decade and Israel hasn't committed any mass killings, yet. In fact, the population of Gaza has grown at 3x the world average.

Bibi monetarily supported Hamas and paroxysmal terrorism through Qatar for a decade, because he thought the adversarial relationship would keep him in power. The War on Gaza has been perpetrated in a manner to keep Bibi in power and out of prison. Netanyahu knew about the terrorist plans at least 9 months in advance and he did nothing. He's their baby Daddy.

Trump is finally discovering that hell no, Bibi and Putin will not listen to them

Having said that there has been terrorist campaigns against Jordan and Egypt, then Israel since the PLO formed in 1962.

In 1948, Jordan took possession of 2nd Arab state land/Palestine in 1948. The WB is written into Jordan's US Charter. Gaza became a territory/protectorate of Egypt.Palestine has a country has only existed for about 6 months since 1947.

Frankly, after the Arab nations invaded Israel for the 3rd time in 1967 and took the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan Hills. Israel should have annexed all three areas immediately on the three strikes, you're out, and I take the land as a buffer. All people who wanted to leave should have been able to (some did) in 1967. No walls would be needed.

After the 1972 Munich hostage crisis and massacre, Israel and the US should have ENDED Arafat (Egyptian) and PLO. Arafat went into "exile" in Tunisia from Beirut, but still ran the PLO like a drug kingpin out of prison. Arafat died a multi-billionaire.

 

[ZenMode]

As usual, you keep detracting from the point and moving the goal posts. You were arguing how Israel morally superior,

They are.

and then there are a shit load of examples of them saying/doing similar things to the things you criticize Hamas for, yet you deflect.

What is the "similar thing" to October 7th that was committed by IDF/Israel?

If you criticize one, you should criticize both. As I stated earlier, both have 0 morality.

I've criticized Israel for denying aid. Even if it's continually being intercepted by the terrorists, Israel should continue allowing it in.

 

[4thgenheel]

 

[RaiGuy]

They are.

What is the "similar thing" to October 7th that was committed by IDF/Israel?

I've criticized Israel for denying aid. Even if it's continually being intercepted by the terrorists, Israel should continue allowing it in.

I like how Israel uses Oct 7th to justify everything they have done, and anything done before does not justify Oct 7th and anything Israel has done after cannot be used as an excuse for an attack against them. Seem hypocritical. Israel always plays the victim.

Also, the myth of aid being "intercepted by terrorists" has been refuted by western sources and the heads of the aid groups. If you can read the links from the last couple pages and still believe Israel is moral, then you lose any credibility that you may have had.

 

[ZenMode]

I like how Israel uses Oct 7th to justify everything they have done, and anything done before does not justify Oct 7th and anything Israel has done after cannot be used as an excuse for an attack against them. Seem hypocritical. Israel always plays the victim.

Also, the myth of aid being "intercepted by terrorists" has been refuted by western sources and the heads of the aid groups. If you can read the links from the last couple pages and still believe Israel is moral, then you lose any credibility that you may have had.

I believe the Israel is more moral than Hamas. That doesn't mean that Israel, Israeli soldiers and Israeli citizens haven't done immoral things. What is means is that you have two sides. One of those sides actively seeks to get civilians killed and one doesn't. One side is deterred, to some degree, by human shields and the other side isn't. One side quite literally revels in what the civilized world considers to be war crimes and the other doesn't.

If you were to switch the roles and give Hamas Israel's weapons and had Israel using civilians as human shields, what you would have is a Monty Python skit were every Israeli is killed.

 

[superrific]

I believe the Israel is more moral than Hamas. That doesn't mean that Israel, Israeli soldiers and Israeli citizens haven't done immoral things. What is means is that you have two sides. One of those sides actively seeks to get civilians killed and one doesn't. One side is deterred, to some degree, by human shields and the other side isn't. One side quite literally revels in what the civilized world considers to be war crimes and the other doesn't.

If you were to switch the roles and give Hamas Israel's weapons and had Israel using civilians as human shields, what you would have is a Monty Python skit were every Israeli is killed.

Dude, Israel was forcing Palestinians to act as human shields for them. That's confirmed.

I don't think you understand the effect of the blockade since 2007. It has almost certainly killed more than 1,000 civilians, but in drips and not in one attack. It has also caused widespread suffering, malnutrition, limited educational opportunities, made it impossible for Gaza to obtain any outside capital.

The blockade itself is illegal and horrifying. And of course the death toll from Israel's current military action exceeds by orders of magnitude the total casualty count of all Palestinian terrorism ever.

 

[ChileG]

The claims of Israel committing genocide started on 10/9/2023.

Is that because that is when the genocide began?

Anyway, watch guard groups have alleged “war crimes” against Israel for a long, long time. Below are just a couple of pre-2023 examples.

Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza

Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups carried out attacks which killed Palestinian civilians and which may amount to war crimes.

www.amnesty.org

World Report 2022: Rights Trends in Israel and Palestine

www.hrw.org

 

[ZenMode]

Dude, Israel was forcing Palestinians to act as human shields for them. That's confirmed.

Where was it confirmed? I've seen one situation where it was alleged, because a Palestinian was being transported on top of an Israeli vehicle, that there were Palestinians being used as human shields.

I don't think you understand the effect of the blockade since 2007. It has almost certainly killed more than 1,000 civilians, but in drips and not in one attack. It has also caused widespread suffering, malnutrition, limited educational opportunities, made it impossible for Gaza to obtain any outside capital.

Why does the blockade exist? Why, after pulling out of Gaza in 2005, was the blockade put into place?

The blockade itself is illegal and horrifying.

And necessary for the survival of Israel... something you must have "forgotten".

And of course the death toll from Israel's current military action exceeds by orders of magnitude the total casualty count of all Palestinian terrorism ever.

Yes because Gaza/Hamas started a war. As I've said many times, Hamas killed 1,000 civilians in a matter of hours using mostly knives and handheld guns. They did this because they are evil POS and were actually targeting civilians. If Israel, with actual military weapons, even matched what Hamas was able to accomplish in hours, the death toll would be well over a million. The reason the Palestinian death toll isn't magnitudes higher is because Israel is NOT targeting civilians. They are trying to avoid civilians and are doing a pretty decent job, I believe, considering Hamas is literally trying to get their own people killed for PR reasons.

 

[ZenMode]

Is that because that is when the genocide began?

Anyway, watch guard groups have alleged “war crimes” against Israel for a long, long time. Below are just a couple of pre-2023 examples.

Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza

Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups carried out attacks which killed Palestinian civilians and which may amount to war crimes.

www.amnesty.org

World Report 2022: Rights Trends in Israel and Palestine

www.hrw.org

'Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza'

Yes because Israel is among those in civilized culture that has developed and defined the concept of "war crimes". Israel has and will seek to punish its soldiers for war crimes. When do you think Hamas will investigate its fighters for war crimes? Right around "not a chance in hell" because war crimes are their fucking M.O. because they uncivilized, immoral POS.

 

[superrific]

Why does the blockade exist? Why, after pulling out of Gaza in 2005, was the blockade put into place?

And necessary for the survival of Israel... something you must have "forgotten".

1. How could it be necessary for the survival of Israel when there was no blockade for the previous 60 years of its existence? Do you ever think about what you post before you post it?

To be blunt: it is clearly NOT necessary for the survival of Israel and any claim to the contrary is fundamentally irrational. I didn't forget anything.

2. Even if Israel needed something to ensure its survival, that does not mean a decades-long blockade is appropriate. It's like the Japanese internment in that regard. Just because in theory there exists some threat doesn't mean you can just disregard human rights.

3. Do you really need an answer as to why the blockade was put in place? They were trying to influence the elections. They said they would blockade Gaza if Hamas won the election -- which gives the lie to the idea that they ever pulled out in the first place.

4. The Israelis count on low-information, low-intelligence Americans to do exactly what you are doing here. Do you have any idea how many political actors consider you to be a useful idiot. Without knowing it, perhaps, you carry water for Bibi, Putin, Bukele, etc. I mean, the world sees people like you as the most gullible, credulous people ANYWHERE.

 

[ZenMode]

1. How could it be necessary for the survival of Israel when there was no blockade for the previous 60 years of its existence? Do you ever think about what you post before you post it?

Because Israel/IDF had occupied/had a significant presence in Gaza since 1967.

To be blunt: it is clearly NOT necessary for the survival of Israel and any claim to the contrary is fundamentally irrational. I didn't forget anything.

Even with the blockade, the terrorists still managed to get enough weapons in to attack Israel, including the worst attack ever on 10/7. If you think this isn't a question of survival for Israel, what do you think would happen if the occupation/blockade didn't exist and Hamas was able to spend the millions in foreign aid on not only terrorist tunnels, but also any weapons they chose.

2. Even if Israel needed something to ensure its survival, that does not mean a decades-long blockade is appropriate.

Ok. What alternatives would you suggest?

It's like the Japanese internment in that regard. Just because in theory there exists some threat doesn't mean you can just disregard human rights.

Again, what do you suggest Israel do when your neighbor wants to destroy you, had repeatedly tried to do so and you have no authority to turn to? If your neighbor repeatedly throws Molotov cocktails through your windows, you call the cops and the cops deal with it. Who does Israel turn to?

I didn't post my reply to your other bullets, pending a finalized discussion on the points above.

 

[superrific]

Even with the blockade, the terrorists still managed to get enough weapons in to attack Israel, including the worst attack ever on 10/7. If you think this isn't a question of survival for Israel, what do you think would happen if the occupation/blockade didn't exist and Hamas was able to spend the millions in foreign aid on not only terrorist tunnels, but also any weapons they chose.

There is an extensive scholarly literature on the effectiveness of sanctions, including blockades. You don't know it, but I do. The unambiguous result of that research is the finding that sanctions are usually counterproductive. They don't defeat the regime they are imposed against; they strengthen it, because now the rulers control all commerce. This has been true in Iran, North Korea, Syria, Russia of course, etc.

If Israel had not blockaded, if Israel had let Gaza develop, there would likely not have been a 10/7. Hamas would not have had a stranglehold on the entire region, as other centers of financial power would emerge. The reason that the imported supplies were used for weapons is that they couldn't be used for anything else. Literally, if you're smuggling in pipes, you can't use the pipes to build, oh I don't know, a factory because then people will ask where'd you get the pipes. The only place the pipes can be used is in the tunnels to build weapons. Absent the blockade, that would not have been true.

Hamas are bastards but they were never strong until the blockade. Israel made them more powerful than they had ever been.