Israel Hamas War, West Bank, Etc. | Hostilities resume

[ZenMode]

I like how Israel uses Oct 7th to justify everything they have done, and anything done before does not justify Oct 7th and anything Israel has done after cannot be used as an excuse for an attack against them. Seem hypocritical. Israel always plays the victim.

Also, the myth of aid being "intercepted by terrorists" has been refuted by western sources and the heads of the aid groups. If you can read the links from the last couple pages and still believe Israel is moral, then you lose any credibility that you may have had.

I believe the Israel is more moral than Hamas. That doesn't mean that Israel, Israeli soldiers and Israeli citizens haven't done immoral things. What is means is that you have two sides. One of those sides actively seeks to get civilians killed and one doesn't. One side is deterred, to some degree, by human shields and the other side isn't. One side quite literally revels in what the civilized world considers to be war crimes and the other doesn't.

If you were to switch the roles and give Hamas Israel's weapons and had Israel using civilians as human shields, what you would have is a Monty Python skit were every Israeli is killed.

 

[superrific]

I believe the Israel is more moral than Hamas. That doesn't mean that Israel, Israeli soldiers and Israeli citizens haven't done immoral things. What is means is that you have two sides. One of those sides actively seeks to get civilians killed and one doesn't. One side is deterred, to some degree, by human shields and the other side isn't. One side quite literally revels in what the civilized world considers to be war crimes and the other doesn't.

If you were to switch the roles and give Hamas Israel's weapons and had Israel using civilians as human shields, what you would have is a Monty Python skit were every Israeli is killed.

Dude, Israel was forcing Palestinians to act as human shields for them. That's confirmed.

I don't think you understand the effect of the blockade since 2007. It has almost certainly killed more than 1,000 civilians, but in drips and not in one attack. It has also caused widespread suffering, malnutrition, limited educational opportunities, made it impossible for Gaza to obtain any outside capital.

The blockade itself is illegal and horrifying. And of course the death toll from Israel's current military action exceeds by orders of magnitude the total casualty count of all Palestinian terrorism ever.

 

[ChileG]

The claims of Israel committing genocide started on 10/9/2023.

Is that because that is when the genocide began?

Anyway, watch guard groups have alleged “war crimes” against Israel for a long, long time. Below are just a couple of pre-2023 examples.

Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza

Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups carried out attacks which killed Palestinian civilians and which may amount to war crimes.

www.amnesty.org

World Report 2022: Rights Trends in Israel and Palestine

www.hrw.org

 

[ZenMode]

Dude, Israel was forcing Palestinians to act as human shields for them. That's confirmed.

Where was it confirmed? I've seen one situation where it was alleged, because a Palestinian was being transported on top of an Israeli vehicle, that there were Palestinians being used as human shields.

I don't think you understand the effect of the blockade since 2007. It has almost certainly killed more than 1,000 civilians, but in drips and not in one attack. It has also caused widespread suffering, malnutrition, limited educational opportunities, made it impossible for Gaza to obtain any outside capital.

Why does the blockade exist? Why, after pulling out of Gaza in 2005, was the blockade put into place?

The blockade itself is illegal and horrifying.

And necessary for the survival of Israel... something you must have "forgotten".

And of course the death toll from Israel's current military action exceeds by orders of magnitude the total casualty count of all Palestinian terrorism ever.

Yes because Gaza/Hamas started a war. As I've said many times, Hamas killed 1,000 civilians in a matter of hours using mostly knives and handheld guns. They did this because they are evil POS and were actually targeting civilians. If Israel, with actual military weapons, even matched what Hamas was able to accomplish in hours, the death toll would be well over a million. The reason the Palestinian death toll isn't magnitudes higher is because Israel is NOT targeting civilians. They are trying to avoid civilians and are doing a pretty decent job, I believe, considering Hamas is literally trying to get their own people killed for PR reasons.

 

[ZenMode]

Is that because that is when the genocide began?

Anyway, watch guard groups have alleged “war crimes” against Israel for a long, long time. Below are just a couple of pre-2023 examples.

Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza

Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups carried out attacks which killed Palestinian civilians and which may amount to war crimes.

www.amnesty.org

World Report 2022: Rights Trends in Israel and Palestine

www.hrw.org

'Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza'

Yes because Israel is among those in civilized culture that has developed and defined the concept of "war crimes". Israel has and will seek to punish its soldiers for war crimes. When do you think Hamas will investigate its fighters for war crimes? Right around "not a chance in hell" because war crimes are their fucking M.O. because they uncivilized, immoral POS.

 

[superrific]

Why does the blockade exist? Why, after pulling out of Gaza in 2005, was the blockade put into place?

And necessary for the survival of Israel... something you must have "forgotten".

1. How could it be necessary for the survival of Israel when there was no blockade for the previous 60 years of its existence? Do you ever think about what you post before you post it?

To be blunt: it is clearly NOT necessary for the survival of Israel and any claim to the contrary is fundamentally irrational. I didn't forget anything.

2. Even if Israel needed something to ensure its survival, that does not mean a decades-long blockade is appropriate. It's like the Japanese internment in that regard. Just because in theory there exists some threat doesn't mean you can just disregard human rights.

3. Do you really need an answer as to why the blockade was put in place? They were trying to influence the elections. They said they would blockade Gaza if Hamas won the election -- which gives the lie to the idea that they ever pulled out in the first place.

4. The Israelis count on low-information, low-intelligence Americans to do exactly what you are doing here. Do you have any idea how many political actors consider you to be a useful idiot. Without knowing it, perhaps, you carry water for Bibi, Putin, Bukele, etc. I mean, the world sees people like you as the most gullible, credulous people ANYWHERE.

 

[ZenMode]

1. How could it be necessary for the survival of Israel when there was no blockade for the previous 60 years of its existence? Do you ever think about what you post before you post it?

Because Israel/IDF had occupied/had a significant presence in Gaza since 1967.

To be blunt: it is clearly NOT necessary for the survival of Israel and any claim to the contrary is fundamentally irrational. I didn't forget anything.

Even with the blockade, the terrorists still managed to get enough weapons in to attack Israel, including the worst attack ever on 10/7. If you think this isn't a question of survival for Israel, what do you think would happen if the occupation/blockade didn't exist and Hamas was able to spend the millions in foreign aid on not only terrorist tunnels, but also any weapons they chose.

2. Even if Israel needed something to ensure its survival, that does not mean a decades-long blockade is appropriate.

Ok. What alternatives would you suggest?

It's like the Japanese internment in that regard. Just because in theory there exists some threat doesn't mean you can just disregard human rights.

Again, what do you suggest Israel do when your neighbor wants to destroy you, had repeatedly tried to do so and you have no authority to turn to? If your neighbor repeatedly throws Molotov cocktails through your windows, you call the cops and the cops deal with it. Who does Israel turn to?

I didn't post my reply to your other bullets, pending a finalized discussion on the points above.

 

[superrific]

Even with the blockade, the terrorists still managed to get enough weapons in to attack Israel, including the worst attack ever on 10/7. If you think this isn't a question of survival for Israel, what do you think would happen if the occupation/blockade didn't exist and Hamas was able to spend the millions in foreign aid on not only terrorist tunnels, but also any weapons they chose.

There is an extensive scholarly literature on the effectiveness of sanctions, including blockades. You don't know it, but I do. The unambiguous result of that research is the finding that sanctions are usually counterproductive. They don't defeat the regime they are imposed against; they strengthen it, because now the rulers control all commerce. This has been true in Iran, North Korea, Syria, Russia of course, etc.

If Israel had not blockaded, if Israel had let Gaza develop, there would likely not have been a 10/7. Hamas would not have had a stranglehold on the entire region, as other centers of financial power would emerge. The reason that the imported supplies were used for weapons is that they couldn't be used for anything else. Literally, if you're smuggling in pipes, you can't use the pipes to build, oh I don't know, a factory because then people will ask where'd you get the pipes. The only place the pipes can be used is in the tunnels to build weapons. Absent the blockade, that would not have been true.

Hamas are bastards but they were never strong until the blockade. Israel made them more powerful than they had ever been.

 

[Healing]

This bosider is so very, very in love with the attention he receives, and will always find the position that gives him the most, irrespective of the evidence for or against.

 

[ZenMode]

There is an extensive scholarly literature on the effectiveness of sanctions, including blockades. You don't know it, but I do. The unambiguous result of that research is the finding that sanctions are usually counterproductive. They don't defeat the regime they are imposed against; they strengthen it, because now the rulers control all commerce. This has been true in Iran, North Korea, Syria, Russia of course, etc.

If Israel had not blockaded, if Israel had let Gaza develop, there would likely not have been a 10/7. Hamas would not have had a stranglehold on the entire region, as other centers of financial power would emerge. The reason that the imported supplies were used for weapons is that they couldn't be used for anything else. Literally, if you're smuggling in pipes, you can't use the pipes to build, oh I don't know, a factory because then people will ask where'd you get the pipes. The only place the pipes can be used is in the tunnels to build weapons. Absent the blockade, that would not have been true.

Hamas are bastards but they were never strong until the blockade. Israel made them more powerful than they had ever been.

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, the blockade was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

So, that being the case, what should Israel do when Hamas, who has already attacked them for decades, now runs the government of the territory and isn't just acting as a terrorist organization within Gaza?

 

[superrific]

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, it was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

It doesn't matter whether you disagree. The ineffectiveness of sanctions and blockades are facts. They are not always ineffective, and not for every purpose -- but their track record in producing regime change is very poor.

It was not a result of Hamas coming into power. It was a result of Hamas running in an election. One reason they won is that the Palestinians were resentful of Israel's threats. Think of it like MAGAs and Trump's indictments, except the Palestinians had real gripes and not just manufactured outrage.

The other subtext here is that Israel's wall on the Gaza border was an inspiration to the MAGA wall-builders. They used to point to the effectiveness of that wall, in order to justify their own stupid ideas. Well, the wall failed, because of course it failed, and that makes MAGA angry.

 

[ZenMode]

It doesn't matter whether you disagree. The ineffectiveness of sanctions and blockades are facts. They are not always ineffective, and not for every purpose -- but their track record in producing regime change is very poor.

Based on scholarly research, you believe that Israel, that had been attacked by Hamas for decades, would have been better off allowing Hamas to their own devices? You believe Israel and ITS civilians would be safer allowing a terrorist organization absolute freedom to import any/all weapons they wanted, to plan and execute any/all attacks they wanted? You believe a terrorist organization would stop terrorizing with more power and resources?

If that truly what you believe, then we can simply agree to disagree.

 

[ChileG]

'Israel/OPT: Investigate war crimes during August offensive on Gaza'

Yes because Israel is among those in civilized culture that has developed and defined the concept of "war crimes". Israel has and will seek to punish its soldiers for war crimes. When do you think Hamas will investigate its fighters for war crimes? Right around "not a chance in hell" because war crimes are their fucking M.O. because they uncivilized, immoral POS.

Wait, did you just hand wave away past and current atrocities because you are of the opinion that Israel will one day seek to punish those responsible (who are by and large not “soldiers”).

 

[Duke Mu]

Other than the last sentence, I completely disagree.

The blockade didn't cause Hamas violence toward Israel, the blockade was the result of Hamas coming into power and based on the fact that Hamas, as it existed in Gaza pre-election 2006/7, was already attacking Israel in the 80s and 90s, if not further back.

So, that being the case, what should Israel do when Hamas, who has already attacked them for decades, now runs the government of the territory and isn't just acting as a terrorist organization within Gaza?

The people in Gaza did vote for Hamas in 2006, then Hamas + blockade resulted in the establishment of an authoritarian terrorist state. Bibi and Israel not only let it happened, but poured gasoline on the fire.

That's because Palestine has not existed since 1948 and has been a terrorist state since 1962 (PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, PA). Israel and the UN let it happen. Jordan and Egypt owned the WB and Gaza from 1948-1967 until they were foolish enough to attack Israel again.

The peace deal Biden, Egypt, Jordan, Saudis, Qatar proposed was a reasonable one. An Arab Coalition with US support would set up a 2nd Arab/Palestinian State. The government would be overseen by the coalition. Training wheels would be on for a decade or longer. Many of the same post WWII strategies used in Germany and Japan would be applied to create a *peaceful* Palestine state. Bibi and Trump have no interest in such a deal.

 

[superrific]

Based on scholarly research, you believe that Israel, that had been attacked by Hamas for decades, would have been better off allowing Hamas to their own devices? You believe Israel and ITS civilians would be safer allowing a terrorist organization absolute freedom to import any/all weapons they wanted, to plan and execute any/all attacks they wanted? You believe a terrorist organization would stop terrorizing with more power and resources?

If that truly what you believe, then we can simply agree to disagree.

Well, how well did the blockade work? See, that's the rub. I don't know what Israel should have done, because I'm not a strategist and my knowledge of the area is cursory. What I do know is that blockades almost never accomplish much other than impoverishing the people who live under the dictatorship.

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

My son is binge watching The West Wing and they devoted several episodes to how Bartlett (POTUS) was going to broker a deal between Israel and Hamas over Gaza. Crazy.

 

[ZenMode]

Well, how well did the blockade work? See, that's the rub. I don't know what Israel should have done, because I'm not a strategist and my knowledge of the area is cursory. What I do know is that blockades almost never accomplish much other than impoverishing the people who live under the dictatorship.

We don't have a magic 8 ball to see back in time.

What do you believe?

Given that the blockade was meant too closely monitor what came in to Gaza, do you believe that leaving terrorists completely unsupervised would result in more or less attacks on Israel? Do you believe those attacks would be more or less severe?

 

[Duke Mu]

My son is binge watching The West Wing and they devoted several episodes to how Bartlett (POTUS) was going to broker a deal between Israel and Hamas over Gaza. Crazy.

SPOILER: It will cost him dearly. Multiple times.

 

[Duke Mu]

We don't have a magic 8 ball to see back in time.

What do you believe?

Given that the blockade was meant too closely monitor what came in to Gaza, do you believe that leaving terrorists completely unsupervised would result in more or less attacks on Israel? Do you believe those attacks would be more or less severe?

The blockade (a) is a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. Israel had not declared war, and thus inflicted collective punishment. (b) the blockade not only built up frustration and poverty in the populace, but also forced and encouraged Hamas to build their massive underground tunnel network for smuggling and hiding weaponry.

Israel should have kept troops and sought a UN or NATO peacekeeping force in Gaza.

Bibi continued to pay to play. He supported Hamas through Qatar and allowed Hamas to lob a few missiles over on a weekly basis to remain in power.

He has isolated himself. A general election in Israel should be called to transition Netanyahu to prison.

Trump has revealed himself (again) to the world to be a doddering, arrogant, stupid fool. He can't get Putin, Bibi, and American courts to do his crazy bidding.

 

[ZenMode]

Wait, did you just hand wave away past and current atrocities because you are of the opinion that Israel will one day seek to punish those responsible (who are by and large not “soldiers”).

To answer your question: no. The discussion, at least as it started between me and RaiGuy, was about whether or not Israel is more moral than Hamas. The evidence of Israel being morally superior, at least for me, is overwhelming. Among that evidence is that a) war crimes are recognized by Israel and b) Israel has punished and will continue to seek to punish soldiers who commit war crimes.

War crimes, on the other hand, are a tactic/strategy used by Hamas fighters which are actively encouraged by leadership and will never be punished.