Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

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Paine said:
Right wing religious extremism is not exclusive to Muslims. The fact that you focus on them is the racist part. We all know you’re talking about brown people.
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This is a discussion about Israel and the war in Gaza.
 
Paine said:
Right, so why are you bringing up Islamism around the world?

Would you like to talk about how the conflict between Israel and Gaza started? Or do you still think history began on October 7, 2023?
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To emphasize that this isn't about Israel specifically. Muslim extremism is an issue for non-Jews and all races around the world. Hamas has publicly stated they want to wipe the state of Israel off the face of the Earth. That would be true if there were no land disputes. It would be true if Israel agreed to a cease fire. It would true if Israel returned every Hamas fighter they currently have imprisoned.

At some point this war will end and Hamas will begin planning their next attack. If not Hamas, it will be whatever new name the Jihadist in Gaza choose.
 
Paine said:
Israel’s conduct is not making Israel safer, and it’s not making the world safer. It’s certainly not helping U.S. foreign policy goals.
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I’d argue the opposite. Sinwar is dead. Nasrallah is dead. Hezbollah is in shambles. Hamas is unable to conduct another 10/7 scale attack. Iran is too timid to do anything other than token and useless rocket attacks. Israel’s actions have been bloody for their enemies but they have worked.
 
ZZLPHeel said:
I’d argue the opposite. Sinwar is dead. Nasrallah is dead. Hezbollah is in shambles. Hamas is unable to conduct another 10/7 scale attack. Iran is too timid to do anything other than token and useless rocket attacks. Israel’s actions have been bloody for their enemies but they have worked.
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This you?

"At some point this war will end and Hamas will begin planning their next attack. If not Hamas, it will be whatever new name the Jihadist in Gaza choose."
 
Paine said:
Surely their campaign of wanton death and destruction hasn’t radicalized future generations.

Israel doesn’t seem to think their objective has been achieved. There’s always more hospitals to bomb and children to snipe.
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Did firebombing Dresden and Tokyo radicalize future generations of Germans and Japanese? Not really. In fact, we became quite friendly with those people shortly afterwards.
 
Paine said:
yeah man, these scenarios are totally analogous.

I’m reminded why I had you on ignore.
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Feel free to put me back on it. I’m down for hearing and debating other points of view, but if that is too exhausting for you then it won’t offend me at all.
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Nope, different person entirely. If you are going to make bad faith allegations, you better be willing to back them up.
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No allegations, though your defensiveness is interesting. I noted that I had the wrong user name. The "at least" was just a throwaway line. I'm not one of those people intent on unmasking others. I really don't care who you were on IC and I don't really care if you've got 5 user names here.
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Did firebombing Dresden and Tokyo radicalize future generations of Germans and Japanese? Not really. In fact, we became quite friendly with those people shortly afterwards.
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This doesn't cut the way you think it does. It undermines your point. Why did we become friendly with West Germany? Maybe because they were not given the impression that we were there to oppress them and steal their land?
 
superrific said:
No allegations, though your defensiveness is interesting. I noted that I had the wrong user name. The "at least" was just a throwaway line. I'm not one of those people intent on unmasking others. I really don't care who you were on IC and I don't really care if you've got 5 user names here.
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It seems as if you do care, since you couldn’t help yourself but to make that allegation. Doubling down rather than backtracking is also interesting. Projection, maybe? Perhaps @Rock , @nycfan , and @SnoopRob could help us figure out who is who. After all, you seem to be very curious and I don’t have anything to hide.
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Did firebombing Dresden and Tokyo radicalize future generations of Germans and Japanese? Not really. In fact, we became quite friendly with those people shortly afterwards.
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Do you seriously think there is ANY chance whatsoever that Israel would go into these places and invest their money in rebuilding those societies and turning them back over to the current populations?

The Allies were pretty incredibly gracious to the populations of the Axis nations after WWII. The Israelis have never shown that propensity. It's much more.lilely that they'll use the whole thing as a land grab based on previous history.

Unless Israeli leadership does a complete 180, they will continue to alienate everyone else in that region and radicalize generation after generation.
 
superrific said:
This doesn't cut the way you think it does. It undermines your point. Why did we become friendly with West Germany? Maybe because they were not given the impression that we were there to oppress them and steal their land?
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Or perhaps because they realized that they had fallen victim to a regime that pushed fanaticism at their own expense, and they saw the light of prosperity and inclusion in the western economic system. A common enemy (the USSR) didn’t hurt. But I have to believe that after all of this, the average Palestinian would choose prosperity over vengeance. Of course there will likely continue to be lone wolves and even terror cells, but that is a reality in many places these days.
 
Paine said:
It’s just not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks a settler colonial state bombing their open air prison with the intent to ethnically cleanse the population is the same as the United States bombing two sovereign nations in a world war.
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Ok. Good talk, and goodbye!
 
ZZLPHeel said:
Did firebombing Dresden and Tokyo radicalize future generations of Germans and Japanese? Not really. In fact, we became quite friendly with those people shortly afterwards.
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Look up the Marshall Plan. Then lookup how we recognized the Emperor's place in Japanese culture instead of executing him and then rebuilt their industries. Then, if you come back and make the same argument, we don't have to figure out if you're stupid or ignorant.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Do you seriously think there is ANY chance whatsoever that Israel would go into these places and invest their money in rebuilding those societies and turning them back over to the current populations?

The Allies were pretty incredibly gracious to the populations of the Axis nations after WWII. The Israelis have never shown that propensity. It's much more.lilely that they'll use the whole thing as a land grab based on previous history.

Unless Israeli leadership does a complete 180, they will continue to alienate everyone else in that region and radicalize generation after generation.
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No, I don’t think the Israelis will. I think the Saudis, and the oil barons in Dubai, and the Americans, and the Germans, and a lot of other people will, though. And I think the Israelis will go along with it, even reluctantly, because they know that is their best option moving forward.
 
finesse said:
Look up the Marshall Plan. Then lookup how we recognized the Emperor's place in Japanese culture instead of executing him and then rebuilt their industries. Then, if you come back and make the same argument, we don't have to figure out if you're stupid or ignorant.
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No analogy is ever completely 1:1 perfect. As the saying goes, history doesn’t repeat itself but it does often rhyme.
 
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