Israel reaches cease fire with Hezbollah, fighting shifts to Syria

[ZenMode]

You keep focusing one one day instead of the 75 year history.

No one is arguing that Oct 7th, 2023 was ok or acceptable. But it doesn't justify the level of response or the years of slowly expanding and refusing to recognize the Palestinians.

But keep focusing on the one thing you seem to believe justifies genocide.

@Paine @RaiGuy

The theme of the conversations is basically the same among the three of you.

Yes, I am focusing on just the recent attack by Hamas and the response by Israel. The past may have been a factor in causing current events, but they aren't relevant as it relates to the question of whether or not Israel's response is proportional. The claim was made by superrific that there's "sure a lot of collateral damage".

First, it's safe to say that there is no ethical or political argument that is going to make sense of dead children being pulled from under what was once an apartment building or mosque or school. It's natural to see such horrific images and assume that whatever caused it has to be evil and must be stopped. That visceral response doesn't mean that Israel's response isn't proportional and justified or that Israel's response has genocidal intentions. Around 3,000 Americans died on September 11. Does that make the civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq excessive? About 2,400 Americans died in the Pearl Harbor attack. Does that make the civilian deaths caused by America excessive?

All wars are different and raw numbers, like the 40:1 ratio in Gaza, doesn't tell the whole story. Fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan is much different than fighting a urban warfare in a densely populated area like Gaza.

I said it before....Hamas, with only knives and guns, killed 1,000 civilians in about 8 hours. Israel would have had to kill over a million civilians in the first year of the war to equal Hamas' rate of civilian death. If Israel wanted to, they absolutely could kill a million civilians, and probably more in a year, with the weapons available to them.

But that's not what they are doing. In fact, if their goal is genocide, this has to rank as the single worst execution of genocide in the history of mankind.

The fact that they have only killed about 40k is, given the circumstances should be viewed as an accomplishment given the circumstances. The circumstances being:

• 15,000 civilians per square mile
• A military that purposely fires weapons from civilian locations
• A military that has purposely built tunnels under apartment buildings, mosques, hospitals and schools
• Purposely uses civilians as human shields
• Discourages civilians from leaving areas that Israel intends to bomb
• A meaningful portion of the civilians have absolutely no issue dying as martyrs in wthink think

I think I have presented my case about as clearly as I can. If there is disagreement, there is no harm in just agreeing to disagree.

 

[Calheel]

@Paine @RaiGuy

The theme of the conversations is basically the same among the three of you.

Yes, I am focusing on just the recent attack by Hamas and the response by Israel. The past may have been a factor in causing current events, but they aren't relevant as it relates to the question of whether or not Israel's response is proportional. The claim was made by superrific that there's "sure a lot of collateral damage".

First, it's safe to say that there is no ethical or political argument that is going to make sense of dead children being pulled from under what was once an apartment building or mosque or school. It's natural to see such horrific images and assume that whatever caused it has to be evil and must be stopped. That visceral response doesn't mean that Israel's response isn't proportional and justified or that Israel's response has genocidal intentions. Around 3,000 Americans died on September 11. Does that make the civilian deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq excessive? About 2,400 Americans died in the Pearl Harbor attack. Does that make the civilian deaths caused by America excessive?

All wars are different and raw numbers, like the 40:1 ratio in Gaza doesn't tell the whole story. Fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan is much different than fighting a urban warfare in a densely populated area like Gaza.

I said it before....Hamas, with only knives and guns, killed 1,000 civilians in about 8 hours. Israel would have had to kill over a million civilians in the first year of the war to equal Hamas' rate of civilian death. If Israel wanted to, they absolutely could kill a million civilians, and probably more, in a year with the weapons available to them.

But that's not what they are doing. In fact, if their goal is genocide, this has to rank as the single worst execution of genocide in the history of mankind.

The fact that they have only killed about 40k is, given the circumstances should be viewed as an accomplishment given the circumstances. The circumstances being:

• 15,000 civilians per square mile
• A military that purposely fires weapons from civilian locations
• A military that has purposely built tunnels under apartment buildings, mosques, hospitals and schools
• Purposely uses civilians as human shields
• Discourages civilians from leaving areas that Israel intends to bomb
• A meaningful portion of the civilians have absolutely no issue dying as martyrs in war.

I don’t think countries (at least democratic countries) have “intentions”. Israel is not a single actor. Bibi may have intentions. The war cabinet may have intentions. The orthodox settlers may have intentions. The liberals may have intentions. But it is not clear to me that the country has an intention - at least not a singular one. It just has actions.

 

[ZenMode]

I don’t think countries (at least democratic countries) have “intentions”. Israel is not a single actor. Bibi may have intentions. The war cabinet may have intentions. The orthodox settlers may have intentions. The liberals may have intentions. But it is not clear to me that the country has an intention - at least not a singular one. It just has actions.

I agree. I would add that actions often reveal intentions. I've seen nothing in the actions of IDF that makes me believe there is intention to commit genocide or intentionally kill civilians. That doesn't mean that there aren't IDF fighters who do terrible things. That is true of every country in every war and I hope that those people are appropriately punished.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Report on Israel using human shields

Just for the record, I think this behavior is despicable and the people responsible should be punished to the fullest extent possible.

 

[RaiGuy]

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Sorry, I made it 30 seconds but once he started simping for Hamas I had to stop. Al Jazeera is to terrorism what Fox News is to MAGAism.

 

[4thgenheel]

Doctors from hospitals around Gaza have reported children with sniper wounds to the head and chest.

all just a big misunderstanding, i'm sure. the IDF is really, truly looking out for palestinians.

 

[RaiGuy]

Sorry, I made it 30 seconds but once he started simping for Hamas I had to stop. Al Jazeera is to terrorism what Fox News is to MAGAism.

What exactly did he say that was "simping for Hamas"?

 

[ZZLPHeels]

What exactly did he say that was "simping for Hamas"?

"We don't need to report on both sides. There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas."

 

[RaiGuy]

"We don't need to report on both sides. There is no moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas."

Try watching the video to see what he means.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Try watching the video to see what he means.

I tried. Like I said, anytime a media outlet states "we're liberated from having to report on both sides of an issue", that's a no-go for me. I'll stick with the NYT and CNN.

 

[RaiGuy]

I tried. Like I said, anytime a media outlet states "we're liberated from having to report on both sides of an issue", that's a no-go for me. I'll stick with the NYT and CNN.

That's because those sites focus on the Israeli side. CNN literally did a special report about the mental health of Israeli soldiers that are scarred by running over Palestinians (some still alive) with their tanks, but rarely cover the side of the Palestinians. The number of victims is not proportional at all, so the coverage should show that.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

That's because those sites focus on the Israeli side. CNN literally did a special report about the mental health of Israeli soldiers that are scarred by running over Palestinians (some still alive) with their tanks, but rarely cover the side of the Palestinians. The number of victims is not proportional at all, so the coverage should show that.

That's untrue and I'm pretty sure you know it. CNN and the NYT report extensively on both sides of the issue. In fact, the article about the IDF using human shields that was posted above came from CNN. Meanwhile, Al Jazeera has journalists on the Hamas and PIJ payroll:

IDF reveals: Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists | The Jerusalem Post

The exposed journalists are part of Hamas's military wing operating as the vanguard of Hamas's propaganda war against Israel.

www.jpost.com

 

[RaiGuy]

That's untrue and I'm pretty sure you know it. CNN and the NYT report extensively on both sides of the issue. In fact, the article about the IDF using human shields that was posted above came from CNN. Meanwhile, Al Jazeera has journalists on the Hamas and PIJ payroll:

IDF reveals: Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists | The Jerusalem Post

The exposed journalists are part of Hamas's military wing operating as the vanguard of Hamas's propaganda war against Israel.

www.jpost.com

Israel is, yet again, making accusations without a shred of shared evidence. They are doing this to justify targeting those journalists. They did the same thing about the UNRWA workers where it was later revealed their claims were false. There was one reporter that was claimed to be part of Hamas in the early 2000s...where that said reporter was only 10 months old. Yeah, totally makes sense.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

Israel is, yet again, making accusations without a shred of shared evidence. They are doing this to justify targeting those journalists. They did the same thing about the UNRWA workers where it was later revealed their claims were false. There was one reporter that was claimed to be part of Hamas in the early 2000s...where that said reporter was only 10 months old. Yeah, totally makes sense.

I understand why someone who gets their news from Al Jazeera, aka the mouthpiece of Hamas, would believe this.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

You get yours straight from the IDF.

I get mine primarily from the New York Times. I don't get mine from a "news" organization that explicitly states "we are free from the burden of having to report both sides of an issue."

 

[NYCBlueBlood]

I understand why someone who gets their news from Al Jazeera, aka the mouthpiece of Hamas, would believe this.

I have not been paying attention to Al Jazeera for quite some time. But when I was trapped in Lebanon during the 2006 war with Israel, Al Jazeera was considered to be the best source of unbiased news by Lebanese Christians.

 

[ZenMode]

Israel is, yet again, making accusations without a shred of shared evidence. They are doing this to justify targeting those journalists. They did the same thing about the UNRWA workers where it was later revealed their claims were false. There was one reporter that was claimed to be part of Hamas in the early 2000s...where that said reporter was only 10 months old. Yeah, totally makes sense.

You made this same incorrect claim about tunnels under hospitals a few days ago. Maybe your news sources just don't provide the relevant evidence. I saw the YouTube video of the tunnels months ago.

 

[RaiGuy]

I understand why someone who gets their news from Al Jazeera, aka the mouthpiece of Hamas, would believe this.

Aljazeera is the only one that has journalists in Gaza, which Israel has targeted in the past, and now will continue to target them by labeling them Hamas members. You seem to label every view that is critical of Israel as pro-Hamas so you can discredit them. It's the same tactic Israel uses to dehumanize Palestinians by accusing them of being Hamas militants.

 

[RaiGuy]

You made this same incorrect claim about tunnels under hospitals a few days ago. Maybe your news sources just don't provide the relevant evidence. I saw the YouTube video of the tunnels months ago.

No, I was saying the video you shared can not be trusted as the guy was pointing to a calendar and saying it was a list of "Khamas terrorists" in Arabic. If they blatantly lied about that, they could have easily planted the weapons there. As I have said all along, there is a reason why they ban foreign journalists from Gaza, and when in the rare occasions they allow one in, they control where they go and then they screen the report and have final say on what is reported. CNN has stated that before its reports from Gaza.