Mass Deportation and Immigration Catch-All | CIA using drones to spy on Mexican drug cartels

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sringwal said:
Thank you for this response. I also wrestle with how much character matters, just as much as I wrestle with how much intelligence matters - for people in politics. More than anything, however, empathy matters to me. And that is where I believe that we, as a country, have failed the world in electing Trump.

Although I didn’t vote for either of them (not that I could have voted for Sr., as the 2000 election was the first I could vote in), I found both Bushes to be empathetic men. I felt the same way about Romney and Dole. I don’t see any empathy in Trump. If we are being honest, I think Trump views empathy as a weakness, a flawed character trait.

At my heart, I am very much an “ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country,” man. I believe that that statement should be at the core of who we are as a nation. It is one of four maxims that I hold dear as it relates to my experience as a United States citizen.

The second one is at the base of the Statue of Liberty:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

The third comes from early in the colonial era, and is a from a sermon by John Winthrop: “For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world.”

Those three statements have defined much of who I am and how I choose to identify myself, as a citizen of this country.

Trump strikes me as a man who will never understand that first statement, scoffs at the second, and only views Winthrop’s City Upon the Hill through the lens of power.

For the first time in the course of my nearly half century on earth, I am no longer certain that any of those three quotes represents where this nation is going. And I don’t know what to do with that, other than assume that the fourth American maxim that I hold dear, “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,” means something very different to Trump supporters than it does to me.

We can debate policy until the cows come home. But goodness should not be up for debate. Yes. We have had corrupt politicians in the past. Yes, I even voted for some of them. But Trump just hits different.

There is a level of cruelty and vindictiveness to him that is a malignant cancer, and it is spreading across America.

That is where I’m coming from. And I believe that others on here agree with me, particularly those who were once a part of the Republican Party, but left because of a man who views the world through a lens that many of us thought died with WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, at least in this country: one of conquest (personal, political, and global).

Add in Elon Musk, a man who is so wealthy that he will probably die having bought and sold several countries, and I honestly don’t know where we go as a society - not only over the next four years, but for the next 40.

That’s not a perspective that I have ever entertained before, and certainly not to the degree that I do now.

Something wicked this way comes.
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Nice post. I read it and then re-read it. There is a lot there. I will offer an opinion on parts of it. Empathy is a very difficult emotion to apply across the board. The easy part is applying it in a single instance. The woman crying at the news all immigration hearings were halted. We all can feel empathy in that situation. I believe everyone is deserving of empathy. That doesn't mean that empathy trumps (no pun intended) all other emotions or should be the dominant emotion. Do you agree or disagree with that comment? Do you feel any empathy for trump? Do you feel any empathy for republicans? Do you feel any empathy for a random voter from nebraska? There is a reason for that last question. Empathy can't override duty or responsibility and we should show empathy to our fellow American citizens before showing it to non citizens. You may disagree with that. But in my opinion we have shown empathy toward non citizens at the expense of American citizens. Empathy at the expense of common sense measures will lead to failure. Do you disagree with that?
 
Callatoroy said:
Nice post. I read it and then re-read it. There is a lot there. I will offer an opinion on parts of it. Empathy is a very difficult emotion to apply across the board. The easy part is applying it in a single instance. The woman crying at the news all immigration hearings were halted. We all can feel empathy in that situation. I believe everyone is deserving of empathy. That doesn't mean that empathy trumps (no pun intended) all other emotions or should be the dominant emotion. Do you agree or disagree with that comment? Do you feel any empathy for trump? Do you feel any empathy for republicans? Do you feel any empathy for a random voter from nebraska? There is a reason for that last question. Empathy can't override duty or responsibility and we should show empathy to our fellow American citizens before showing it to non citizens. You may disagree with that. But in my opinion we have shown empathy toward non citizens at the expense of American citizens. Empathy at the expense of common sense measures will lead to failure. Do you disagree with that?
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Of course I do. I can always get good odds. Empathy is about how you feel and not how you act. It's not the driver if you act against common sense. In fact, if you take common sense to be synonymous with common good, real empathy would drive you in that direction.
 
finesse said:
Of course I do. I can always get good odds. Empathy is about how you feel and not how you act. It's not the driver if you act against common sense. In fact, if you take common sense to be synonymous with common good, real empathy would drive you in that direction.
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of course you do what?
 
finesse said:
Empathy at the expense of common sense measures will lead to failure. Do you disagree with that?
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Ok, not wanting to play semantics and we might be saying the same thing. Empathy is an emotion that can drive actions/decisions, both good and bad.
 
Callatoroy said:
Ok, not wanting to play semantics and we might be saying the same thing. Empathy is an emotion that can drive actions/decisions, both good and bad.
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I can buy that but I still bet that's less likely than hate, greed, fear or at least a dozen other things that are more self centered that I don't get why that would be a focus. Seems to me real empathy would push you toward the greater good.
 
finesse said:
I can buy that but I still bet that's less likely than hate, greed, fear or at least a dozen other things that are more self centered that I don't get why that would be a focus. Seems to me real empathy would push you toward the greater good.
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I was talking about empathy as outlined in sringwal's post. Depending on the individual, empathy is no stronger or weaker than any of those emotions. Based on sringwal's post I suspect empathy is one of his more dominant emotions.
 
Should be now
Callatoroy said:
Nice post. I read it and then re-read it. There is a lot there. I will offer an opinion on parts of it. Empathy is a very difficult emotion to apply across the board. The easy part is applying it in a single instance. The woman crying at the news all immigration hearings were halted. We all can feel empathy in that situation. I believe everyone is deserving of empathy. That doesn't mean that empathy trumps (no pun intended) all other emotions or should be the dominant emotion. Do you agree or disagree with that comment? Do you feel any empathy for trump? Do you feel any empathy for republicans? Do you feel any empathy for a random voter from nebraska? There is a reason for that last question. Empathy can't override duty or responsibility and we should show empathy to our fellow American citizens before showing it to non citizens. You may disagree with that. But in my opinion we have shown empathy toward non citizens at the expense of American citizens. Empathy at the expense of common sense measures will lead to failure. Do you disagree with that?
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Thank you for that response, and those follow up questions.

I agree that empathy should not be the driving force of the decision making process. Logic should be. But, yes,I do believe that empathy should be the dominant emotion, followed closely by a desire for mutual respect. I honestly can’t think of another emotion that should drive policy. Patriotism would be next on my list, as an influencer.

I absolutely empathize for republicans, as well as random voters in Nebraska. And I empathize with my family, who are hog farmers in Elizabethtown, NC. Being a teacher allows me daily insight into a number of different viewpoints and, even when I disagree with their perspectives, I empathize with their experiences.

I do, however, have a difficult time feeling empathy for Trump. I empathize with his anxiety, which I think is much higher than people realize. But beyond that, I don’t understand what it is that truly motivates him to act the way he does to empathize. That may be a failing on my part, but I am usually good at reading people and seeing the self they strive to be, rather than the self they fear they are, or the one they project on the world.

Where we disagree is on the citizen vs. non citizen part. 1) Human beings are human beings are human beings. We must show an equal amount of empathy to all. That does not mean that non-citizens deserve the same rights as citizens. They do not. What they do deserve, however, is a clearer path to citizenship. Immigration has always been a crucial part of the American identity. And, while it has at times been a lower overall percent of the population, at times it has also been higher. U.S. Immigrant Population and Share over Time, 1850-Present

I also don’t see empathy as a pie chart. It isn’t something that is limited in a way that showing it towards one group lessens showing it towards another. For example, I saw a number of people on Facebook critiquing those showing concern for people living in Los Angeles because they felt it was ignoring those who continue to suffer in Western North Carolina. Empathy isn’t a zero sum game.

Yes. There are immigrants who do horrible things. But there are also citizens who do horrible things. The consequences for doing horrible things almost certainly should be greater for immigrants than for non immigrants, particularly for those who are deliberately abusing the system.

But, the vast majority of immigrants, particularly those who are trying to gain citizenship, help make the country better just as much as citizens do - because varied experiences hold value. We should not punish those who try to do things the right way because of real, or imagined, fears about people who don’t.

If we are being honest - the constant political fighting and reversal of policy is doing far more to damage the country, and drive up the debt, than anything else.

Where you and I agree most is the need for common sense measures. Where we disagree is in the belief that this administration has those to offer.
 
sringwal said:
Should be now

Thank you for that response, and those follow up questions.

I agree that empathy should not be the driving force of the decision making process. Logic should be. But, yes,I do believe that empathy should be the dominant emotion, followed closely by a desire for mutual respect. I honestly can’t think of another emotion that should drive policy. Patriotism would be next on my list, as an influencer.

I absolutely empathize for republicans, as well as random voters in Nebraska. And I empathize with my family, who are hog farmers in Elizabethtown, NC. Being a teacher allows me daily insight into a number of different viewpoints and, even when I disagree with their perspectives, I empathize with their experiences.

I do, however, have a difficult time feeling empathy for Trump. I empathize with his anxiety, which I think is much higher than people realize. But beyond that, I don’t understand what it is that truly motivates him to act the way he does to empathize. That may be a failing on my part, but I am usually good at reading people and seeing the self they strive to be, rather than the self they fear they are, or the one they project on the world.

Where we disagree is on the citizen vs. non citizen part. 1) Human beings are human beings are human beings. We must show an equal amount of empathy to all. That does not mean that non-citizens deserve the same rights as citizens. They do not. What they do deserve, however, is a clearer path to citizenship. Immigration has always been a crucial part of the American identity. And, while it has at times been a lower overall percent of the population, at times it has also been higher. U.S. Immigrant Population and Share over Time, 1850-Present

I also don’t see empathy as a pie chart. It isn’t something that is limited in a way that showing it towards one group lessens showing it towards another. For example, I saw a number of people on Facebook critiquing those showing concern for people living in Los Angeles because they felt it was ignoring those who continue to suffer in Western North Carolina. Empathy isn’t a zero sum game.

Yes. There are immigrants who do horrible things. But there are also citizens who do horrible things. The consequences for doing horrible things almost certainly should be greater for immigrants than for non immigrants, particularly for those who are deliberately abusing the system.

But, the vast majority of immigrants, particularly those who are trying to gain citizenship, help make the country better just as much as citizens do - because varied experiences hold value. We should not punish those who try to do things the right way because of real, or imagined, fears about people who don’t.

If we are being honest - the constant political fighting and reversal of policy is doing far more to damage the country, and drive up the debt, than anything else.

Where you and I agree most is the need for common sense measures. Where we disagree is in the belief that this administration has those to offer.
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Just want to commend you and @Callatoroy for this cordial exchange. I learned a great deal from both of y'all.
 
I appreciate that. And, to be clear, I'm all for tighter borders. I believe, however, that republicans should put as much focus on improving the process for those working towards citizenship as they do to keeping people out. Not only for the best and the brightest, but also for the tired, poor, huddled masses. After all, most of us come from immigrants of some sort of another. We were all there, or someone in our family was, until they weren't.
 
sringwal said:
I appreciate that. And, to be clear, I'm all for tighter borders. I believe, however, that republicans should put as much focus on improving the process for those working towards citizenship as they do to keeping people out. Not only for the best and the brightest, but also for the tired, poor, huddled masses.
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I completely agree that we have a moral obligation to the tired, poor, and huddled masses and would be willing to bet that you and I could craft a better immigration bill than the pubs are going to craft because we aren't owned by anyone. I have a dear friend who moved from brazil with his wife and son because his wife had been stopped by the local cops and harassed. He went to the station and lodged a complaint. Two days later while at work, his car was riddled with bullets. He left brazil and came here bringing a skill. He worked in NYC until he saved enough money to by all the tools he needed, applied for citizenship, and moved his family to Wilmington 9 years ago. During those 9 years he has traveled to NJ 9 times to meet with his immigration attorney and spent close to $40,000. Still not a citizen. At the request of his attorney I have written letter after letter on his behalf. The system is fucked up beyond belief and has to be fixed. Even after going through all that he is more patriotic towards America than many of its citizens but even he agrees there has to be a system that is followed.
 
Callatoroy said:
would be willing to bet that you and I could craft a better immigration bill than the pubs are going to craft because we aren't owned by anyone.
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this is the problem with you in a nutshell. You cannot craft a better immigration bill, because you cannot even craft a bill. You seem to have no awareness that there is a world that exists apart from you; that there are experts in that world who can do things that you cannot; that those experts usually have knowledge that you don't know even exists. There are several layers of knowledge required here and you don't have any of them, and you don't know about any of them.

The GOP has lunatic ideas, but they also know how to draft legislation. You do not.
 
Callatoroy said:
I completely agree that we have a moral obligation to the tired, poor, and huddled masses and would be willing to bet that you and I could craft a better immigration bill than the pubs are going to craft because we aren't owned by anyone. I have a dear friend who moved from brazil with his wife and son because his wife had been stopped by the local cops and harassed. He went to the station and lodged a complaint. Two days later while at work, his car was riddled with bullets. He left brazil and came here bringing a skill. He worked in NYC until he saved enough money to by all the tools he needed, applied for citizenship, and moved his family to Wilmington 9 years ago. During those 9 years he has traveled to NJ 9 times to meet with his immigration attorney and spent close to $40,000. Still not a citizen. At the request of his attorney I have written letter after letter on his behalf. The system is fucked up beyond belief and has to be fixed. Even after going through all that he is more patriotic towards America than many of its citizens but even he agrees there has to be a system that is followed.
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And even with all of this you fail to recognize how much better your friend has it than immigrants from Mexico do. Make no mistake, your friend should be a citizen. But also make no.mistake that his treatment is 100x better than Mexican immigrants.
 
Callatoroy said:
He left brazil and came here bringing a skill.
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How did he legally immigrate? Did he get on a plane and come here and overstay his visa? You don’t just show up in the US and start working legally.How many years elapsed between deciding to emigrate from Brazil until he was able to legally work in the US?
 
Callatoroy said:
Eh, we could write down the important stuff and then send it to the attorneys so they could make it almost unreadable so they get to appear smart.
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I could probably do that in the field of education. But that would be the limit to my koalafication, unless there was a legislation that needed to be written on the proper use of wordplay.
 


“…
More than 10,000 refugees were currently in the pipeline to travel to the United States, according to government data. They include Afghans who faced danger because of their association with the United States before the military withdrawal from Afghanistan. Among other refugees who had been approved for travel were people from Africa, Latin America and the Middle East.

The sudden halt to the flights was an agonizing blow to refugees who had been following a complicated and lengthy process to enter the country legally, resettlement group workers said. …”
 
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