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Ok, so what if Mexico launches drone strikes against firearms smugglers in the US?
Mass Deportation and Immigration Catch-All | CIA using drones to spy on Mexican drug cartels
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And how do you think carrying out military operations in Mexico is going to help? As to my comparison to Gaza, it’s a great comparison. These people will melt into the communities they oppress. There’s no doubt there are a few hard targets that can be hit, but that will not stop the drug traffic. Once again, we will be attacking an ally (for now) and will end up killing huge numbers of innocent people if Trump follows thru with this policy. Also, you did not answer my question. How would you feel if Mexico attacked our sovereign soul with drone strikes?
Callatoroy
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Then they would have fucked up. You can't compare the two issues. We have been trying to get mexico to step up their fight with the cartels since the late 70s. The US is actively pursuing legislation to increase inspections at the border to catch the gun runners because the guns help fuel the cartels ability for violence and in the end helps drive more drugs northward. A big difference between biden and trump is trump will actually do something rather than making a quarterly statement that mexico needs to stop the flow of fentanyl and then crickets for several months. You might not like what he is going to do and I get that but he is going to act. And in this case I'm all for it. I don't care if mexico gets pissed. They have had 50 years to deal with the cartels and have waved the white flag.
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Gotcha...rules for thee but not for me. Apparently we just get to run rough shod over the planet and do as we please in your viewpoint.
And I absolutely guarantee that whatever Trump does will not positively impact the drug trade because demand always finds supply.
Callatoroy
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I don't have to feel anything about it because it won't ever happen. You are hung up on the premise that fair matters. Fuck fair. We have begged and pleaded for mexico to stop the fentanyl but they either can't or won't. In either case the result is the same. So if they can't or won't then we can either accept 70,000 deaths a year, which could be someone in your family, or we can do something about it. After 4 years of jill doing nothing but giving lip service trump campaigned on doing something and he is going to do something. You can sit on your false moral high ground and publicly trash him for not following "normal" protocol while secretly thanking him after the flow gets cut and cartels are cripled by dead cartel heads. And we aren't attacking an ally. We are attacking a terrorist organization that is killing Americans. You don't have a problem with dropping a drone strike on an isis leader or hamas leader. No difference. Protecting Americans from fentanyl is no different than protecting Americans from suicide bombers in a mall.
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In this scenario 1 kg would be a million doses, which just goes to illustrate your point even more so...
Callatoroy
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When it comes to drug cartels which are now terrorist organizations (thanks trump) you are damn right. Rules for thee but not for me. Maybe someone in your family doesn't die because trump took a stand against fentanyl coming into the US.
You are right that demand will always find supply and there is no illusion trump can stop all or even a majority. But you saw the effect it had on hamas and hezbollah when israel took out their top leaders. They all but crumbled. After trump takes out some cartel heads I suspect they will shift their focus back to the good ole days of cocaine where everyone is happy.
Callatoroy
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You are correct. These people have houses and travel in cars. We know who they are and have spies who report on them. Mexican authorities are just to corrupt as super pointed out or to scared or to out gunned or whatever. But the result is inaction. We will likely go after the heads and then their replacements until they decide to focus on less lethal drugs
I can’t believe you. Sure there is corruption in Mexico’s police, government and military. But guess what? The corruption exists worldwide. Al Capone’s biggest cost of doing business at the height of his power was graft. The problem is there is just too much money involved in these illegal operations for some people not to have their hands out. But bombing the shit out of suspected cartel assets isn’t going to solve the problem. The problem lies in demand in this country for the drugs. Even if military action could eliminate a cartel (which it can’t), another group would step in to fill the void. Addressing the demand problem in this country is something all administrations have failed at. However, addressing that issue successfully is the only way to eliminate the drug problem. Once again, how would you feel if Mexico carried out military operations in this country? And please don’t give the stupid answer of “Fuck Mexico.” That’s the answer an ignorant redneck would give. But, then again, maybe I’m giving you too much credit.
CFordUNC
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Since something like 85%+ of fentanyl comes into the U.S. via U.S. citizens - who I presume are not Mexican cartel members- at legal ports of entry, are we going to drone strike them, too?
I remember when I was a Republican, I used to think that the way to solve the issue of all of the bad guys in the world was to just sic the U.S. military on them and bomb them into oblivion. Then, I grew up, got over my immature fetish of thinking that we can simply do whatever the fuck we want because we have a strong military, other countries and other people be damned, and I joined the real world where there’s tons of nuance and gray area and no easy solutions to complex problems. Coincidentally, I was no longer Republican by that time!
It goes without saying: fuck the cartels, fuck criminals. But also, fuck people who think that violation of another country’s sovereignty and probable collateral damage of its citizens is the proper way to conduct our affairs.
I remember when I was a Republican, I used to think that the way to solve the issue of all of the bad guys in the world was to just sic the U.S. military on them and bomb them into oblivion. Then, I grew up, got over my immature fetish of thinking that we can simply do whatever the fuck we want because we have a strong military, other countries and other people be damned, and I joined the real world where there’s tons of nuance and gray area and no easy solutions to complex problems. Coincidentally, I was no longer Republican by that time!
It goes without saying: fuck the cartels, fuck criminals. But also, fuck people who think that violation of another country’s sovereignty and probable collateral damage of its citizens is the proper way to conduct our affairs.
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This is the moment most left of center perspectives cement, in my experience.
Just look at maga, every problem is a nail - just swing a hammer at it, ie a strongman, a bully, a daddy, threats, and violence. Sure, there’s the unending selfishness of the right, but in the aggregate, the unwillingness (usually out of unreflected insecurity) or inability to perceive and respect nuance functionally lies at the heart of their consistently predictable simplistic “solutions” and poorly reinforced logic. Sometimes it’s a genuine lack of intelligence, but often it’s a lack of exposure to a world of complexity. That’s why Heritage et al. has sought to destroy public education, for decades.
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immature fetish is precisely the apt description of that kind of thinking.
superrific
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Their refusal? Refusal?
What's our excuse? Those same cartels bring the drugs into the US, and they distribute the drugs within the US. Why have we refused to clamp down on them? Most of the drug runners are American citizens. Why haven't we put a stop to it?
Do you understand that this is a topic with a long history? We went through this in the 80s with the Medillin cartel. The Colombian government literally declared war on them, and the country was torn apart with civil conflict and paramilitary violence until it was barely functional. The drugs kept flowing to America. They became more plentiful. The US spent billions on a War On Drugs that attacked supply, and they failed.
The way to address the problem is to address drug addiction in the US. There are medications that greatly assist in recovering from addiction. They are used comparatively rarely in the US because . . . the folks who run the 12 step programs (often right-wing Christians) don't want the competition because it will drive them out of business (12 step programs being categorical failures as medical interventions, barely better than placebo).
Now we have an actual heroin addict running HHS.
Now, what were you saying about Mexico's complicity? By the way the area Trump wants to attack has no jungles. Most of Mexico has no jungles.
superrific
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Why are you blaming Mexico for American failures? It's always the same for you guys. The reason that we think you're racists is that, whenever you get angry at something, you lash out at brown people and blame them for the problems.
Here's the reality:
1. The **primary** responsibility for curtailing heroin use in the US belongs to the US. Mexico's government doesn't actually have any responsibility to help us at all.
2. For 50 years, America has completely failed. We have tried military solutions before. We fucking bombed and sprayed herbicide all over South America. It did not stop the drugs. We have tried law enforcement solutions. They have also been ineffective.
3. Mexico is and long has been working with the US on the problem. But it is manifestly NOT their fault that so many Americans turn to opiate addiction. America and Americans did that. How about you focus your accountability on the people WITHIN THIS COUNTRY who are responsible. That means identifying failed policies and changing them, and replacing the leadership. But you guys don't want to do that, because the best ways to treat addiction involve scientific medicine.
4. At a minimum, the US needs to be imprisoning our own homegrown drug dealers before bombing other countries. And Trump surely will -- wait, what's that? He pardoned one of the most prolific drug traffickers in history, who also tried to have five people murdered? Ross Ulbricht? That guy was pardoned?
Oh.
5. "Protecting Americans from fentanyl is no different than protecting Americans from suicide bombers in a mall" might be the stupidest of all the incredibly stupid things posted on this board. What went through your mind as you typed that? Were you just blinded by rage?
4thgenheel
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ASMR? what a bunch of absolute sickos.
superrific
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Yeah, I realized later that I lost a factor of 1000 in there but it didn't seem worth rushing to my computer to correct it.
Still, 20 ponds of fentanyl is equivalent of up to a ton of heroin and there's a new class of drugs 20 times stronger. As you and others have said, you're not stopping the drugs in Mexico and you're not stopping them at the borders. The amounts needed are too small to be easy to discover and less than one per cent comes in with illegals. Most, about 85%, comes in with American citizens.
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the good ole war against drugs lmao cant believe anyone still argues about it. been spendings billions a year on it for decades and we have more drugs hhere than ever before
same goes for illegals
we have a great demand for drugs here and it help fund our self sustaining joke of a legal system
we have a great demand for cheap illegal labor its not going anywhere either
same ole tired bipartisan bickering over a nothing burger thats not going to change one bit
same goes for illegals
we have a great demand for drugs here and it help fund our self sustaining joke of a legal system
we have a great demand for cheap illegal labor its not going anywhere either
same ole tired bipartisan bickering over a nothing burger thats not going to change one bit
Callatoroy
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Mexico carrying out military operations in this country is a hypothetical that is a waste of time to consider. It won't ever happen as they can barely carry out a military operation in their own country. It doesn't matter how Mexico feels about it. They have sold their souls to the cartels. I believe you are correct in that we need to address the demand side at the same time as addressing the supply side and they can be done simultaneously. But you are woefully underestimating the effect killing cartel heads would have. Cartels aren't staffed by radicalized, brainwashed jihadists. They are staffed by rational thinking, often poor people who had no other economic options. They have a healthy fear of infinite military capability and power. We have the technology to minimize collateral damage so you are going to see how effective it can be.