NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament Thread

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Icky Mettle said:
Morrison really wasn’t a bad pick at the time. Obviously no one can predict the future. People were excited about the pick at the time and there really wasn’t another player who people really thought should have been picked over him at the time. He may have ended up ended up being a bust, but that didn’t make him a poor choice to draft at the time. I also do think his injury was a contributing factor to his career never taking off.
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I disagree. Even in college you could see all the warning signs -- poor rebounding, no passing, TOs, iffy shooting. And he was playing in a poor conference. A lot of his effectivess was getting to the line 10 times a game and every NBA team had to know that wasn't going to last. He was shooting like 15 FTs per game against the likes of Portland and Pepperdine.

Again, this is a guy who everyone knew would provide little defense. He wasn't going to be a good locker room guy (he didn't take showers, it was reported). His entire skill set in the league would be making buckets. Even in the best case scenario, that was an iffy idea. You want more than Vinnie Johnson from your #3 pick. And it's weird that MJ overlooked all of that, given the importance he placed on defense in his personal game and among his teammates.

And those 3 point %s should have been a red flag, as well as the overall level of competition. Brandon Roy was still on the board. Hell, Tyrus Thomas was still on the board, and while Tyrus was raw and had issues, he at least had potential.
 
duluoz said:
When people label him those things, it’s because they didn’t enjoy his time spent on the college hoops pedestal and they enjoyed seeing him knocked off of it.
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I can't say I'd be upset if Cooper Flagg's career trajectory follows that of Morrison's...
 
Weird how only super knew without a speck of doubt that Morrison had absolutely no potential. All the signs were there! How did he fool so many pros and pundits!

Sheesh that guy really knows everything!! It’s uncanny!!
 
And sure he played in a mostly crappy conference, but he routinely put up 30+ in games they won or played closely against the best of the best in the country. Zags played everyone back then and still do.
 
duluoz said:
Weird how only super knew without a speck of doubt that Morrison had absolutely no potential. All the signs were there! How did he fool so many pros and pundits!

Sheesh that guy really knows everything!! It’s uncanny!!
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Morrison was panned as a pick by most commentators, IIRC. I could be wrong.

I appreciate the point about hindsight bias, but I just don't think that was the issue with Morrison.
 
duluoz said:
It doesn’t matter who their coach is, or who their players are (even though I found this group of players as unlikable as most dook teams). It’s what they represent, or desperately want to represent — a privileged elitism and otherism that I will always wish failure and embarrassment on.

I watched the semifinal games in a bar in Brooklyn with a few friends, and there happened to be a group of dook fans (I assume alums), and they looked and acted exactly how I expected them to. Watching their faces during the meltdown was even more fun than watching the actual meltdown.

We left that place and I was floating, and bought rounds for my friends at the next spot… it was joyous.

I’ve been fairly successful working the word “hate” out of my vocab and thoughts… but I will never not hate dook. And to give that up would be giving up another of the last vestiges of my love for college hoops and for sports in general.
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Uh, good luck with all... that. It's just a game, man.
 
duluoz said:
And sure he played in a mostly crappy conference, but he routinely put up 30+ in games they won or played closely against the best of the best in the country. Zags played everyone back then and still do.
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Right, but if you're going to look at his shooting stats across an entire season, those crappy conference games inflate his numbers. If you play weak competition for half your games, then you're unlikely to get the 1-9 night that can really mess up the stats. So when you're looking at a guy who shot 30%, 31% and then 42% from 3, you need to make sure that 42% is legit. And I don't know if you can do that if half your games are against patsies, even if they were also playing good teams.

Another red flag for me would have been the spike in FTs. Freshman/sophomore years, FT rate was what you'd expect. Then as a junior, his FT attempts went way up. I don't know if it was end of game fouling or generous refs or whatever, but he was never going to get close to 9 FT attempts per game.

I will give him credit on this -- he had a good 2p% every year and I don't know if that was mostly midrange jumpers or if he sometimes got to the rim. That was his main skill and I don't think that was worthy of a #3 pick.
 
ZZLPHeels said:
I find it hard to hate Duke anymore. Scheyer is actually likeable (gross), the students are actually academically gifted and Duke and UNC collaborate on quite a few things. There is a mutual respect between both programs as the rivalry is better when we're both good.

I actually hate State much more than Duke. Massive athletic and academic inferiority complex, history of unhinged and racist behavior towards UNC, constantly screaming for attention when they do something interesting once every few decades....there's no respect there. They are just lunatics.
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Raise Hand GIF by Nick Jonas
 
superrific said:
01 was also stolen by awful refs -- both Maryland and Arizona got fucked. So you win some, lose some.
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Was it in the final four against Maryland when JWill climbed on Blake’s back for a 10 second piggyback ride and didn’t get whistled?
 
Just got in from the Final Four in San Antonio.
Four number 1 seeds, four good teams, anything could've happened.

Hung out at the Duke hotel afterwards. Talk about total devastation. Closest thing Ive ever seen? The UNC team hotel in Houston in 2016.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Was it in the final four against Maryland when JWill climbed on Blake’s back for a 10 second piggyback ride and didn’t get whistled?
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I think that was against Arizona in the finals. It wasn't Blake but Jason Gardner. Well, there might also have been similar bullshit against Blake, but the Gardner non-call was famous.

Against Maryland, they hit Lonny Baxter with a ticky-tack call for his third foul, when the Dookies were being way more physical.
 
Morrison's career stats were comparable to Brad Sellers'...
 
hedge said:
Morrison's career stats were comparable to Brad Sellers'...
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I would be far less critical of the Morrison pick at #9, especially considering that when Sellers was picked, #9 was two spots outside the lottery.

I would be far more critical of passing over Dawkins if they didn't already have MJ.

Not quite the same situations.
 
Bigs23 said:
The best team ever not getting it done is a pretty big fail.
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Who is claiming that d00k 2025 is the best team ever? I’d just rather have had their results than ours.

d00k 2002 also had an outstanding team - 31-4 (13-3); Ranked #1, #2, or #3 all season; 2nd in the ACC; ACC Tourney Champs; Sweet 16. Disappointing end to an excellent season. UNC was 8-20. I’d rather have had d00k’s season.
 
superrific said:
I disagree. Even in college you could see all the warning signs -- poor rebounding, no passing, TOs, iffy shooting. And he was playing in a poor conference. A lot of his effectivess was getting to the line 10 times a game and every NBA team had to know that wasn't going to last. He was shooting like 15 FTs per game against the likes of Portland and Pepperdine.

Again, this is a guy who everyone knew would provide little defense. He wasn't going to be a good locker room guy (he didn't take showers, it was reported). His entire skill set in the league would be making buckets. Even in the best case scenario, that was an iffy idea. You want more than Vinnie Johnson from your #3 pick. And it's weird that MJ overlooked all of that, given the importance he placed on defense in his personal game and among his teammates.

And those 3 point %s should have been a red flag, as well as the overall level of competition. Brandon Roy was still on the board. Hell, Tyrus Thomas was still on the board, and while Tyrus was raw and had issues, he at least had potential.
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I agree that his defense was suspect and that was the main concern everyone had. His rebounding, however, was fine for a player of his position and role (5.5 rpg his junior year) and his shooting % was very good his junior year (.428 from 3 / .523 from 2). While his 3-point % wasn’t particularly good his freshman and sophomore years (it wasn’t awful either), he shot 3s at a lower volume then. He did lead his conference in 2-point % his freshman year.

While the WCC may not have been the toughest conference, Gonzaga did play a strong non-conference schedule that included— among other ranked and/or high major conference opponents— UConn and Memphis, who finished the season ranked 2nd and 4th, respectively. And Morrison really helped make a name for himself by putting up good numbers against those ranked and/or high major conference opponents (25 points and 9 rebounds vs. Maryland, 43 points and 7 rebounds vs. Michigan State, 43 points vs. Washington, 25 points vs. OK State and UVA, 34 points vs. Memphis). He finished his season in the Sweet 16 with 24 points on 10-17 shooting in a 2-point loss to UCLA, who finished the season with a #7 ranking and reached the national championship game.

And as far as him not taking showers, that makes him sound like a great locker room guy. More room for the players in the showers.
 
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Icky Mettle said:
I agree that his defense was suspect and that was the main concern everyone had. His rebounding, however, was fine for a player of his position and role (5.5 rpg his junior year) and his shooting % was very good his junior year (.428 from 3 / .523 from 2). While his 3-point % wasn’t particularly good his freshman and sophomore years (it wasn’t awful either), he shot 3s at a lower volume then. He did lead his conference in 2-point % his freshman year.

While the WCC may not have been the toughest conference, Gonzaga did play a strong non-conference schedule that included— among other ranked and/or high major conference opponents— UConn and Memphis, who finished the season ranked 2nd and 4th, respectively. And Morrison really helped make a name for himself by putting up good numbers against those ranked and/or high major conference opponents (25 points and 9 rebounds vs. Maryland, 43 points and 7 rebounds vs. Michigan State, 43 points vs. Washington, 25 points vs. OK State and UVA, 34 points vs. Memphis).

And as far as him not taking showers, that makes him sound like a great locker room guy. More room for the players in the showers.
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His per minute rebound rate was poor, and for a forward he really should have done better.

Look, I get the argument for Morrison. Had he been picked at #10, I would have thought it a bad pick but not outrageously so because the opportunity cost is lower. Personally, I wouldn't have taken him in the top 15, and though it was a long time ago and my memory is not perfectly accurate, that's my best recollection of my position on him.

He wasn't like Rafael Araujo, who was picked #8 having zero chance to succeed in the NBA. I guess he had a slight chance. And it turned out not to be as bad as selecting Bennett #1 (though that was an especially weak draft).
 
superrific said:
His per minute rebound rate was poor, and for a forward he really should have done better.

Look, I get the argument for Morrison. Had he been picked at #10, I would have thought it a bad pick but not outrageously so because the opportunity cost is lower. Personally, I wouldn't have taken him in the top 15, and though it was a long time ago and my memory is not perfectly accurate, that's my best recollection of my position on him.

He wasn't like Rafael Araujo, who was picked #8 having zero chance to succeed in the NBA. I guess he had a slight chance. And it turned out not to be as bad as selecting Bennett #1 (though that was an especially weak draft).
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In a draft that weak, it’s not hard to understand taking Morrison at #3. You can shuffle most of those guys from the first and second rounds and it wouldn’t matter much. Very low impact draft.

And, again, #3 was justified by his rookie season relative to his peers — 4th in ROY, second team all-rookie. Relatively, it’s a solid season. Then his ACL injury, which it is very reasonable to infer, killed his chances of improving the way many rookies with solid seasons do.

But I don’t doubt that you will continue with your numbered responses going round… and round… and round… and round… with neither of us saying anything new.
 
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