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I've read Stormy Daniels' description of it. Hopefully we never have to actually see it, lol
Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”
- Thread starter nycfan
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Go do your schtick with someone else loser.
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I think Calla thinks we won't have to depend on China as much for minerals if Trump can shake down Zelensky and Ukraine for those minerals. Personally, I'd rather not take Ukraine's minerals and find another source country that's not being bombarded by that asshole megalomaniac, Vlad Putin. Ukraine needs all the help it can get.
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Biden got a lot right. The declassification of intelligence material at the beginning of the war was a masterstroke. It moved European public opinion to support Ukraine early in the conflict when it mattered.
In retrospect, it's easy to say that we should have given more weapons faster. But the counterfactual that is impossible to prove is what the Russian response would have been. He was trying to support Ukraine without prompting a tactical nuke escalation. I would argue that the most analagous historical moment to arming Ukraine to retake the Donbass is our march to the Yalu River in the Korean War. That didn't end well...
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I would think that if Biden was trying to broker a peace deal and negotiate with Putin, it would include Russia withdrawing from the sovereign territory of Ukraine and making recompense for the damage it illegally wrought upon the Ukraine people...
Surely you agree
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Are you sure Putin’s the most evil person on the planet?
Touche
Callatoroy
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Well what are the details of that? I know you want to, and have to believe its capitulation. But since no details are out there for scrutiny kind of hard to say that isn't it?
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Biden did nothing to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine other than stating "DON'T" - real effective.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.
If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.
The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.
If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.
The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
Carolina Fever
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It's not literal.
aGDevil2k
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Done!
Callatoroy
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Assumptions are what drives this board. You haven't offered anything of substance to consider.
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Former U.S. officials have held secret Ukraine talks with Russians
The aim of the discussions is to lay the groundwork for potential negotiations to end the war, people briefed on the talks told NBC News.
www.nbcnews.com
You've heard everything Trump has said about this. I'm not going to regurgitate it for you if you are going to just act obtuse.
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Zelensky should have beaten the living shit out of Trump.
The only reason to support a continuation of this war is that it continues to grind down Russia, its military capabilities, and its economy.
I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.
I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.
I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
Callatoroy
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Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.
What is your take on the days events?
Callatoroy
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I agree with that. Trump can't commit to providing a security guarantee, nor can europe because that is nothing more than an informal admission into nato. Putin would never go for that. I think security can be backdoored by having US investment and infrastructure in ukraine. I think russia would be way more hesitant to invade ukraine if we have American infrastructure and people there.