Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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The only reason to support a continuation of this war is that it continues to grind down Russia, its military capabilities, and its economy.

I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.

I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
 
Ramrouser said:
Biden did nothing to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine other than stating "DON'T" - real effective.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.

If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.

The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
Click to expand...
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.

What is your take on the days events?
 
Huh? said:
The only reason to support a continuation of this war is that it continues to grind down Russia, its military capabilities, and its economy.

I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.

I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
Click to expand...
I agree with that. Trump can't commit to providing a security guarantee, nor can europe because that is nothing more than an informal admission into nato. Putin would never go for that. I think security can be backdoored by having US investment and infrastructure in ukraine. I think russia would be way more hesitant to invade ukraine if we have American infrastructure and people there.
 
We made the security commitment to Ukraine in 1994. We don't have to make a new commitment, just not walk away from what we've already agreed to.

It's intentionally vague, and I would argue that our provision of materiel met our obligations. It's important that Putin know that we - and Europe - will do the same if he invades again.
 
Enigma94 said:
You've heard everything Trump has said about this. I'm not going to regurgitate it for you if you are going to just act obtuse.
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Because you can't. You are stumped when pressed for details. Nothing about any deal with putin has been made public. So disingenuous and full of bullshit. Someone is being obtuse but it isn't me.
 
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.

What is your take on the days events?
Click to expand...
1. You're very silly if you think a complete moron has any idea what he's doing.

2. You have no foresight. Even if Trump achieves "peace in our time," that doesn't mean anything for the long-term. In fact, what is happening right now makes it much more likely there will be a WWIII. Not inevitable. But more likely.
 
Ramrouser said:
Biden did nothing to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine other than stating "DON'T" - real effective.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.

If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.

The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
Click to expand...
I assume Biden/NATo had intel that cazy Putin would use tactical Nukes if we say Carpet bombed the "convoy" we all saw being amassed on the border to prepare for an invasion. I assumme Biden had Intel that "bringing in our Air Force" would result in such also . Likewise with american made rockets headed inside Russia....Biden called out to the world what was about to happen and with NATO supported delivery of arms for Ukraines defense
Eventually of course the Pube Congress decided to slow walk more aid..........and of course orangeturd flat out capitulated-because he had a personal beef with Zelensky
I think this is a good summary
 
Similar to yours. I would have preferred a more traditional diplomatic meeting between two allies.

It should have initially been a private meeting so they could air out their frustrations behind closed doors. Signing ceremony then, do a scripted joint presser and finish with lunch. This is especially true since clearly Trump and Vance do not like Zelensky and are tired of his schtick

I blame Zelensky and his team for not knowing his audience and reading the room. Showing up in his GI Joe Uniform (would it have been too much to put on a suit?) clearly irked Trump from the get go. Then, Zelensky felt the need to lecture and correct the President in the White House. Contrast this to Macron and Starmer who were real pros and made a genuine effort to act warmly and appropriately in the presence of Trump (he is who he is) and had done their homework in what to do and not to do in a meeting with this President.

It's very early in the negotiation process and everyone's nerves are frayed, particularly Ukraine's, but the process will continue on. Note it is reported that Zelensky and the Ukrainian team were begging for the meeting to not end. Trump loved that thinking he's put Ukraine in its place. But I think everyone looked bad today. It will play out but will be ugly. Putin is admittedly enjoying this for now as we, very publicly, sort out our issues with our ally/client but eventually we'll turn and demand concessions from Russia.
 
MendotoManteo said:
1. You're very silly if you think a complete moron has any idea what he's doing.

2. You have no foresight. Even if Trump achieves "peace in our time," that doesn't mean anything for the long-term. In fact, what is happening right now makes it much more likely there will be a WWIII. Not inevitable. But more likely.
Click to expand...
So your argument is unless trump puts into writing that the US will guarantee ukraine's perpetual security, no other type of peace deal is worthwhile? OK that's a great take.
 
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that.
Click to expand...

I would like to know what this mineral deal had to do with "achieve a peace deal" ?
 
Ramrouser said:
Similar to yours. I would have preferred a more traditional diplomatic meeting between two allies.

It should have initially been a private meeting so they could air out their frustrations behind closed doors. Signing ceremony then, do a scripted joint presser and finish with lunch. This is especially true since clearly Trump and Vance do not like Zelensky and are tired of his schtick

I blame Zelensky and his team for not knowing his audience and reading the room. Showing up in his GI Joe Uniform (would it have been too much to put on a suit?) clearly irked Trump from the get go. Then, Zelensky felt the need to lecture and correct the President in the White House. Contrast this to Macron and Starmer who were real pros and made a genuine effort to act warmly and appropriately in the presence of Trump (he is who he is) and had done their homework in what to do and not to do in a meeting with this President.

It's very early in the negotiation process and everyone's nerves are frayed, particularly Ukraine's, but the process will continue on. Note it is reported that Zelensky and the Ukrainian team were begging for the meeting to not end. Trump loved that thinking he's put Ukraine in its place. But I think everyone looked bad today. It will play out but will be ugly. Putin is admittedly enjoying this for now as we, very publicly, sort out our issues with our ally/client but eventually we'll turn and demand concessions from Russia.
Click to expand...
I would love to know the details about what went into the decision to bring cameras into the room. My guess is it was trump's but that was a really bad move on his part.
 
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