Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

[Bobfripp]

Starmer: Coalition of willing to guarantee Ukraine peace

The UK prime minister says Europe would take the lead but would need US backing for a peace plan.

www.bbc.com

"The UK, France and other countries will step up their efforts in a "coalition of the willing" and seek to involve the US in their support for Ukraine, he [Starmer] said."

Ah, Dubya and the good ole' days. I really, really like Starmer. Good man. Taking a proper piss out of the Yanks.

 

[CHAMTRAIN]

Perfectly rational for the EU to ask themselves “if not now, when? If not us, who?” with respect to ceasing the advancement of a genocidal despot. They’ve seen this first hand. The EU can confidently predict Putin’s incursions into the Baltics and Poland, at which point article 5 gets invoked after Russians are thoroughly entrenched, literally and figuratively, throughout Eastern Europe.

Also forces the US's hand. Mouth breathers won't be applauding Trump when Putin is killing British and French soldiers. We would be obligated....and Putin would have to know that. It's a way to drag the U.S. into defending Ukraine against Trumps will.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

It is utter bullshit that we can't afford to continue to support Ukraine. We could amp support up by multiples of 3 or 4 times the current levels if we wanted. We are sending 30-40 Billion to Ukraine annually. Our annual defense budget alone is 20 to 30 times that size. It is quite arguable that money spent for Ukraine to continue to degrade Russia is the best spent money of our entire national defense.

+1000. That GOP argument is just total bullshit. We've crippled Russia at virtually no cost to ourselves beyond sending them weapons that we can definitely afford, and in the process have prevented Putin from attacking other former Soviet states (and make no mistake, if he had conquered Ukraine easily he would have done so by now). Putin was in bad shape until Trump was elected, but now he has someone in the Oval Office who is quite literally on his side and is helping him to achieve his goals - goals that he likely could not have achieved had Trump not been elected. That's the bottom line, and it's one that Republicans want to do anything but discuss. Hence the diversions to Obama, Biden, false claims that we could not have continued military support for Ukraine, attacks on Zelensky instead of Putin, etc.

 

[BlueSmoke]

The end game is an independent Ukraine. Ukraine is standing between Europe and Russia. Technically not literally between, but strategically yes. Independent every square mile? Probably not.

Over three years, we have given Ukraine 122 Billion according to CBS News today. There is a higher number, but that was really spent in house for us on some things, and not directly sent over there. But say, 60 billion a year in aid? A bargain for us and a better deal then handing out tax cuts. Once, Russia controls Ukraine, its people, its military and arms industry then we have a major, expensive problem on our hands. It will be Cold War spending all over if Trump doesn't completely sell us out first.

Hey, Ukraine and its people are fighting. We spent 20 years doing all the fighting for Afganistan. Not to mention we easily spent more then 60 billion a year on that war.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

It really is so unfathomable that so many Americans simply…..got bored….of being the strongest, most powerful, most economically prosperous, most influential nation in the world, and decided to elect the only person in the history of the nation who ran for president on an explicit platform of dismantling and destroying it all. Every other empire that I can think of in the history of the world declined because they were usurped by outside forces. Ours did it voluntarily.

To paraphrase David Brooks, the receding roar of white privilege has driven many white Americans insane. And for anyone who wants to mention Trump's minority support, roughly 85% of Trump's vote in 2024 came from white Americans, not minorities. Make no mistake, MAGA is still very much a white person's movement.

 

[BlueSmoke]

May be wrong thread, but has anyone heard that the Secretary of Defense has ordered Offensive Cyber warfare against Russia to stop? As I understand it, you really can't do defensive cyber without the offensive. And if we are exposed then that pretty much means Russia its friends literally have us by the you know what.

 

[wmheel1287]

So more war? More lives lost? You think Russia would just stand by and be slowly weakened?

Support Ukraine as long as they want to fight. Don't pretend for one second that you care about the lives of Russians and the Ukrainians want to fight for their own homeland. I don't think Russia will just be slowly weakened. I know it. We've seen it for 3 years.

 

[aGDevil2k]

It's time to graduate Silence to to super ignore

 

[sringwal]

May be wrong thread, but has anyone heard that the Secretary of Defense has ordered Offensive Cyber warfare against Russia to stop? As I understand it, you really can't do defensive cyber without the offensive. And if we are exposed then that pretty much means Russia its friends literally have us by the you know what.

Trump administration retreats in fight against Russian cyber threats

Recent incidents indicate US is no longer characterizing Russia as a cybersecurity threat, marking a radical departure: ‘Putin is on the inside now’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Patb78]

It really is so unfathomable that so many Americans simply…..got bored….of being the strongest, most powerful, most economically prosperous, most influential nation in the world, and decided to elect the only person in the history of the nation who ran for president on an explicit platform of dismantling and destroying it all. Every other empire that I can think of in the history of the world declined because they were usurped by outside forces. Ours did it voluntarily.

I can’t think of a country that had the world by the balls and just let go. The Roman Empire fell in part because of internal problems. Put they didn’t on purpose kick themselves in the balls. To use a golf analogy, it’s like clearing the water on a tough par 4 and then turning around and hitting the ball into the lake you just hit a great drive to cross. UFB!!

 

[ZenMode]

 

[SnoopRob]

Trump was described as an isolationist in The Art of the Deal.

Do you have a source for that or anything to add any details to that claim?

Because it's been a long (long, long) time since I read TAotD, but I don't remember it being particularly political.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

What does everyone else think? Personally, I think Michael Flynn is a disgraceful human being. Pretty much the same with Elon Musk. But, I’m aware others may have a different view.

Do we want an opposing side to have a voice or is this just blatant “trolling”?

I think you get the old Snoop style ZZL when you try to police it. There are plenty of nonsense posters on here that passionately believe that Trump/Vance/anyone else they don't like is a Russian agent/Nazi/whatever despite some pretty compelling evidence that they aren't. You start banning the nonsense from the opposite side while leaving the nonsense from your side and you get an echo chamber where the rhetoric keeps ratcheting up and its okay to call for political assassinations. I'd leave him and let the people who get upset about it use the ignore button.

 

[CFordUNC]

So unbelievably stupid that we are single-handedly going to be the cause of a completely needless massive nuclear proliferation across the globe. Such an unbelievable own-goal.

 

[Healing]

Also forces the US's hand. Mouth breathers won't be applauding Trump when Putin is killing British and French soldiers. We would be obligated....and Putin would have to know that. It's a way to drag the U.S. into defending Ukraine against Trumps will.

I think you’re giving maga far, far too much credit. To them, Brits and the French are liberal coastal elites and the Russians are salt of the earth. At least this is what they’ll tell themselves, bc, truly, they’ve simply outsourced their morality and any shred of political free will to don and/or musk.

 

[Silence Dogood]

It really is so unfathomable that so many Americans simply…..got bored….of being the strongest, most powerful, most economically prosperous, most influential nation in the world, and decided to elect the only person in the history of the nation who ran for president on an explicit platform of dismantling and destroying it all. Every other empire that I can think of in the history of the world declined because they were usurped by outside forces. Ours did it voluntarily.

This is definitely trolling. How are we declining currently?

 

[Mulberry Heel]

This is definitely trolling. How are we declining currently?

Um, alienating our closest allies, aligning ourselves with Putin & Russia against said former allies, turning even Canada against us, gutting essential government workers and programs (like firefighters and weather forecasters for instance) and gutting essential vaccine and medical and scientific research, while not focusing on strengthening the economy despite GOP claims that it would be a top priority once Dear Leader was elected? Is that a good start?

 

[nycfan]

Why we should stop worrying and learn to love Putin:

 

[nycfan]

 

[Patb78]

Um, alienating our closest allies, aligning ourselves with Putin & Russia against said former allies, turning even Canada against us, gutting essential government workers and programs (like firefighters and weather forecasters for instance) and gutting essential vaccine and medical and scientific research, while not focusing on strengthening the economy despite GOP claims that it would be a top priority once Dear Leader was elected? Is that a good start?

Well measured response Mulberry. I was thinking of something a lot more bombastic, but you stated the case very well. Thanks.