Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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nycfan said:

WSJ Editorial Bord:​

Putin Wins the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Spectacle​

Vice President Vance starts a public fight that only helps Russia’s dictator.​



“Toward the end of his on-camera, Oval Office brawl with Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, President Trump quipped that it was “great television.”

… The meeting between Messrs. Trump and Zelensky started out smoothly enough. “It’s a big commitment from the United States, and we appreciate working with you very much, and we will continue to do that,” Mr. Trump said of the mineral deal. Mr. Zelensky showed photos of Ukrainians mistreated as prisoners of war. “That’s tough stuff,” Mr. Trump said.

The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

…
But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

… Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.“
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nycfan said:

WSJ Editorial Bord:​

Putin Wins the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Spectacle​

Vice President Vance starts a public fight that only helps Russia’s dictator.​



“Toward the end of his on-camera, Oval Office brawl with Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, President Trump quipped that it was “great television.”

… The meeting between Messrs. Trump and Zelensky started out smoothly enough. “It’s a big commitment from the United States, and we appreciate working with you very much, and we will continue to do that,” Mr. Trump said of the mineral deal. Mr. Zelensky showed photos of Ukrainians mistreated as prisoners of war. “That’s tough stuff,” Mr. Trump said.

The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

…
But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

… Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.“
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I don’t think it helps Putin. I think this has galvanized Europe and that is not good for Putin.

If Putin engineered this, I would say he overplayed his hand.
 
Callatoroy said:
Not trying to be a jerk but that’s all fairy tale stuff. Putin will never agree to any of that so it’s all a non starter and I think you know it. Ukraine is out of options unless Europe is going to carry all of the load. Zel is out of options because he is running out of troops. Putin has more resources and can wait Zel out. That mineral rights deal was his future security.
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Here's a simple question. What do you think will get the best terms for Ukraine: sucking up to Putin and treating Zelensky like trash? Or taking a tougher stance with Russia that makes clear we intend to keep backing Ukraine if he doesn't end this war?

We're the United States of freaking America. We are the strongest, most influential country in the world. (For now.) Russia is very weak compared to us. We have the power to get better terms for Ukraine by directing Trump's tough guy act towards Putin rather than him and Vance embarrassingly berating Zelensky in a staged photo op.

Russia and Putin are the enemy here. I know you know that. Why are you out here defending Trump doing Putin's dirty work for it by trying to strut around like a peacock and browbeat Ukraine into better terms for Putin? Is there anyone in the world more happy with today's embarrassing farce than Putin?
 
Callatoroy said:
Quote from ChileG: “I’m happy the world got to see what a buffoon Trump is. Why wouldn’t that make me happy?” Somebody….at least fucking ONE is honest enough to admit it. That isn’t zero and there are more who are to scared to own it.
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Is shitposting all day every day really how you want to spend your life?
 
Callatoroy said:
That’s great when you have very little skin in the game. Can’t wait to see all those billions in weapons and cash headed to Ukraine from Canada, Slovenia, Latvia, Luxembourg, and Croatia. I’m sure Ukraine can push Putin out now.
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xbox reek GIF
 
CFordUNC said:
Thank the good Lord that today’s Republicans were not around in the 1940’s or else the entire European continent and most of Africa would be speaking Deutsch, and the entire Pacific rim- and perhaps even some of the US West Coast – would be speaking Japanese.
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Oh, they were around.
ChapelHillSooner said:
I don’t think it helps Putin. I think this has galvanized Europe and that is not good for Putin.

If Putin engineered this, I would say he overplayed his hand.
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Putin’s main goal is to destabilize and eradicate America’s influence on the world stage. We are the world’s superpower; our military and nuclear capabilities dwarf all EU countries combined.
 
UNCRx85 said:
Yall gotta quit with this weird thing about what he wears to visit Trump. Who gives a shit? His people are getting slaughtered.

Jesus F. Christ.

What do you wear to commune with God in church on Sunday? Because if it ain’t a full-on suit and tie,………
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I didn't say I cared. I said Trump cared.

Maybe try some decaf.
 
rodoheel said:
Here's a simple question. What do you think will get the best terms for Ukraine: sucking up to Putin and treating Zelensky like trash? Or taking a tougher stance with Russia that makes clear we intend to keep backing Ukraine if he doesn't end this war?

We're the United States of freaking America. We are the strongest, most influential country in the world. (For now.) Russia is very weak compared to us. We have the power to get better terms for Ukraine by directing Trump's tough guy act towards Putin rather than him and Vance embarrassingly berating Zelensky in a staged photo op.

Russia and Putin are the enemy here. I know you know that. Why are you out here defending Trump doing Putin's dirty work for it by trying to strut around like a peacock and browbeat Ukraine into better terms for Putin? Is there anyone in the world more happy with today's embarrassing farce than Putin?
Click to expand...
Did you read my first comment in response to Dr Bob? I was very critical of what happened. I’m not defending trump’s actions today. I have moved beyond that. There are some things that are non starters for any hope of a peace deal. You have to know that. Putin will never agree to 2 things. NATO and pulling back to the original border. Crimea and donbass are now part of Russia. It is a win for Ukraine if it ends now. They will have the world’s admiration. We will provide security by our presence in Ukraine and generate billions for Ukraine from their mineral deposits that they can’t get to now to rebuild. All of that is a good deal for Ukraine and the US.

We might be the mighty USA but we are equaled by a China Russia alliance. Trump has to peel Putin away from China as much as possible. Our biggest geopolitical threat is no longer Russia. It’s China and adding Russia to that is a monster we don’t want to face. Trump playing hardball with Putin just drives him more into china’s arms. This isn’t just about Russia any longer. Russia has been neutered by the war and it will take a decade for Russia to recover. Trump needs to end the war for Putin because Putin can’t do it without trump. Trump needs to lift sanctions on Russia and get them back into the G8 because they aren’t an immediate threat unless paired with China. We can contain Russia by our building and occupying infrastructure in Ukraine. That is the reality trump is faced with. We need those minerals and Ukraine needs us there. That is the solution that can be achieved now and is a win for the US and Ukraine and a loss for Russia on the world stage.
 
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