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Russia - Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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WSJ Editorial Bord:​

Putin Wins the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Spectacle​

Vice President Vance starts a public fight that only helps Russia’s dictator.​



“Toward the end of his on-camera, Oval Office brawl with Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, President Trump quipped that it was “great television.”

… The meeting between Messrs. Trump and Zelensky started out smoothly enough. “It’s a big commitment from the United States, and we appreciate working with you very much, and we will continue to do that,” Mr. Trump said of the mineral deal. Mr. Zelensky showed photos of Ukrainians mistreated as prisoners of war. “That’s tough stuff,” Mr. Trump said.

The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

…
But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

… Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.“
 
UNCRx85 said:
Yes, I think allowing them to keep and control territory they’ve gained thru unprovoked aggression, war crimes, and indiscriminate slaughter of innocents would be a bad deal.

I don’t see how it’s not clear to all that a free and democratic Ukraine, coupled with Putin’s Russia being economically and militarily incapable of large-scale war in Europe is not in the US’s interests.

To your point of “perpetual security” for Ukraine and it’s potential for drawing us into a war, what do you think allowing Russian invasions are gonna eventually do?
Click to expand...
Not start WW3. As you acknowledged, they aren’t in a position economically to keep waging war. The only way to stop Putin is
1) through worldwide sanctions which won’t happen because of China and others who buy Russia’s oil.
2) nato boundaries
3) internal strife within russia
4) Putin dying
5) The US’s presence in Ukraine helping mine rare earths

Continuing to give hundreds of billions in weapons won’t push Putin out of Ukraine. It will increase the chances Putin uses battlefield nukes though.
 
nycfan said:
Maybe Trump’s 4D chess was to bring the rest of the world together in support of Ukraine and then he’ll reveal how clever he was to use reverse psychology to get them to help the USA do more to support Ukraine.



Austin Powers Doctor Evil GIF
Click to expand...

Please, mythical-human-coping-entity-in-the-sky, let their words actually represent their future behavior.
 
wmheel1287 said:
Im not saying anything other than what I have said twice now. Nobody....fucking ZERO....People on here are happy that today went the way it did. Nobody here wants our relationships with Europe fractured. Nobody wants Ukraine hung out to dry. Nobody wants any of that to somehow get a political "win" over Donald Trump. That you think this way is indicative of your own spiral into the Trump cesspool of victimization and nothing else.
Click to expand...
Quote from ChileG: “I’m happy the world got to see what a buffoon Trump is. Why wouldn’t that make me happy?” Somebody….at least fucking ONE is honest enough to admit it. That isn’t zero and there are more who are to scared to own it.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
It would make Trump look really weak.
Click to expand...
I guess. Maybe to some people that don't like him already and are never going to vote for him. There are plenty of his supporters that want nothing to do with Russia and Ukraine.

I think at this point we've bled Russia. Sucks for the Ukrainians and those Russian conscripts that were thrown into the meat grinder but it has been great for a lot of other countries who likely won't have to worry about being invaded while Putin is alive. Russia won't start another major war for two decades.

I think it's time for peace if Ukraine wants it and is willing to give up much of the territory it has already lost. If I were Zielinski I wouldn't give in to giving Russia territory that they don't already have. And if Ukraine wants to keep fighting, I'm fine with supplying arms to them to continue crippling Russia on the cheap.
 
Callatoroy said:
It is actually nothing like that. Europe's aid was in the form of a loan. Why would we give more aid than Europe, Europe get paid back but not the US. As well, those minerals will sit there until Russia takes them or China comes in and gets them because ukraine doesn't have the capability to get them.. It is actually very smart on trump's part and it provides some security to ukraine as we would be invested in the country. putin isn't going to attack again if we are there.
Click to expand...
After the way Trump and Vance treated Zelensky (sp) today I thought he reacted in a very measured manner. I was taught as a young child if you want people to treat you with respect you must treat them with respect. Obviously trumps parents never him that. I wouldn’t treat the person at the bottom of the barrel like that, while those two motherfuckers talked to the head of state of a sovereign country like he was a dog. He should have asked one of them to step outside for a minute. I guarantee Zelensky would have been the only one to come back in the room. He has shown great courage leading his country’s against the attack of a brutal dictator. Trump and Vance have never shown courage in their lives.
 
Lando said:
If you’re Iran and you see this type of reasoning from Republicans, is there any level of sanctions that would even slow you down from pursuing nukes? It’s a get out of jail free card.
Click to expand...
Every country on this planet is investigating and pursuing nukes at this point, if they don't have them already.

The world order our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought for in Europe and the Pacific is done. Our allies will never trust us again in any way.
 
Patb78 said:
After the way Trump and Vance treated Zelensky (sp) today I thought he reacted in a very measured manner. I was taught as a young child if you want people to treat you with respect you must treat them with respect. Obviously trumps parents never him that. I wouldn’t treat the person at the bottom of the barrel like that, while those two motherfuckers talked to the head of state of a sovereign country like he was a dog. He should have asked one of them to step outside for a minute. I guarantee Zelensky would have been the only one to come back in the room. He has shown great courage leading his country’s against the attack of a brutal dictator. Trump and Vance have never shown courage in their lives.
Click to expand...
They were just mad Zelensky didn't beg and plead and kiss their ass for help.
 
Callatoroy said:
Quote from ChileG: “I’m happy the world got to see what a buffoon Trump is. Why wouldn’t that make me happy?” Somebody….at least fucking ONE is honest enough to admit it. That isn’t zero and there are more who are to scared to own it.
Click to expand...
Take a deep breath; it’s going to be ok. For a minute there you were on the verge of smashing your iPad and breaking your fidget spinners and sensory toys before you got ChileG to confess. Hopefully that will help you sleep better tonight.
 
DougDaBroadcasta said:
Every country on this planet is investigating and pursuing nukes at this point, if they don't have them already.

The world order our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought for in Europe and the Pacific is done. Our allies will never trust us again in any way.
Click to expand...
Evil around the world is delighted. America is far less safe than it was yesterday.
 
Healing said:
Please, mythical-human-coping-entity-in-the-sky, let their words actually represent their future behavior.
Click to expand...
That’s great when you have very little skin in the game. Can’t wait to see all those billions in weapons and cash headed to Ukraine from Canada, Slovenia, Latvia, Luxembourg, and Croatia. I’m sure Ukraine can push Putin out now.
 
Kinda my face, but lying in bed fighting some bullshit upper respiratory virus watching reports and then video flood in:

 
nycfan said:

WSJ Editorial Bord:​

Putin Wins the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Spectacle​

Vice President Vance starts a public fight that only helps Russia’s dictator.​



“Toward the end of his on-camera, Oval Office brawl with Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, President Trump quipped that it was “great television.”

… The meeting between Messrs. Trump and Zelensky started out smoothly enough. “It’s a big commitment from the United States, and we appreciate working with you very much, and we will continue to do that,” Mr. Trump said of the mineral deal. Mr. Zelensky showed photos of Ukrainians mistreated as prisoners of war. “That’s tough stuff,” Mr. Trump said.

The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

…
But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

… Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.“
Click to expand...
 
nycfan said:

WSJ Editorial Bord:​

Putin Wins the Trump-Zelensky Oval Office Spectacle​

Vice President Vance starts a public fight that only helps Russia’s dictator.​



“Toward the end of his on-camera, Oval Office brawl with Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, President Trump quipped that it was “great television.”

… The meeting between Messrs. Trump and Zelensky started out smoothly enough. “It’s a big commitment from the United States, and we appreciate working with you very much, and we will continue to do that,” Mr. Trump said of the mineral deal. Mr. Zelensky showed photos of Ukrainians mistreated as prisoners of war. “That’s tough stuff,” Mr. Trump said.

The nose dive began with an odd interjection from Vice President JD Vance, who appeared to be defending Mr. Trump’s diplomacy, which Mr. Zelensky hadn’t challenged. Mr. Zelensky rehearsed the many peace agreements Mr. Putin has shredded and essentially asked Mr. Vance what would be different this time.

Mr. Vance unloaded on Mr. Zelensky—that he was “disrespectful,” low on manpower, and gives visitors to Ukraine a “propaganda” tour. President Trump appeared piqued by Mr. Zelensky’s suggestion that the outcome in Ukraine would matter to the U.S. “Your country is in big trouble. You’re not winning,” Mr. Trump said at one point.

Why did the Vice President try to provoke a public fight? Mr. Vance has been taking to his X.com account in what appears to be an effort to soften up the political ground for a Ukraine surrender, most recently writing off Mr. Putin’s brutal invasion as a mere ethnic rivalry. Mr. Vance dressed down Mr. Zelensky as if he were a child late for dinner. He claimed the Ukrainian hadn’t been grateful enough for U.S. aid, though he has thanked America countless times for its support. This was not the behavior of a wannabe statesman.

…
But as with the war, Mr. Zelensky didn’t start this Oval Office exchange. Was he supposed to tolerate an extended public denigration of the Ukrainian people, who have been fighting a war for survival for three years?

It is bewildering to see Mr. Trump’s allies defending this debacle as some show of American strength. The U.S. interest in Ukraine is shutting down Mr. Putin’s imperial project of reassembling a lost Soviet empire without U.S. soldiers ever having to fire a shot. That core interest hasn’t changed, but berating Ukraine in front of the entire world will make it harder to achieve.

Turning Ukraine over to Mr. Putin would be catastrophic for that country and Europe, but it would be a political calamity for Mr. Trump too. The U.S. President can’t simply walk away from that conflict, much as he would like to. Ukraine has enough weapons support to last until sometime this summer. But as the war stands, Mr. Putin sees little reason to make any concessions as his forces gain ground inch by bloody inch in Ukraine’s east.

Friday’s spectacle won’t make him any more willing to stop his onslaught as he sees the U.S. President and his eager deputy unload on Ukraine’s leader. Some Trumpologists have been suggesting Mr. Trump will put pressure on Mr. Putin in due time. But so far Mr. Putin hasn’t made a single concession on territory, or on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself in the future after a peace deal is signed.

… Mr. Trump does not want to be the President who abandoned Ukraine to Vladimir Putin with all the bloodshed and damage to U.S. interests that would result. Mr. Vance won’t like to run for President in such a world either.“
Click to expand...
I don’t think it helps Putin. I think this has galvanized Europe and that is not good for Putin.

If Putin engineered this, I would say he overplayed his hand.
 
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