Russia - US | Ukraine “peace negotiations”

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There must be a Rip Van Winkle story in here somewhere. An American falls asleep in 1980s America in which Republicans hate Russia and despise government interference, and then wakes up in present day America with Republicans fawning over the Russian dictator and treating our own wannabe dictator like some sort of God. I’m not a fan of this expression, and I was never a big fan of his, but Ronald Reagan must be turning in his grave.
 
Lando said:
We won’t do the same. We have just made a very good case that nonproliferation is a horrible mistake.
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I fear you are correct. It will be scary to live in a world in which a nuclear Germany, Japan and South Korea will reduce launch response times to a few minutes. When you add in the emerging missile shield technologies, the math will favor a first launch strike for both good and bad actors in the world.
 
Huh? said:
I fear you are correct. It will be scary to live in a world in which a nuclear Germany, Japan and South Korea will reduce launch response times to a few minutes. When you add in the emerging missile shield technologies, the math will favor a first launch strike for both good and bad actors in the world.
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i miss having adults in the room…
 
Huh? said:
The only reason to support a continuation of this war is that it continues to grind down Russia, its military capabilities, and its economy.

I don't think it's worth the bloodshed. If there is to be a negotiated peace, what should happen is:
- Russia will continue to control its current territory in the Donbass.
- Whether its annexation of Crimea is recognized by the rest of the world is an open negotiating point.
- Gradual lifting of sanctions on Russia as it meets negotiated military de-escalation commitments.
- Ukraine's path to NATO is closed. Kissinger was right.
- There is no treaty limitation to Ukraine's ability to join the EU. This will be controversial and a negotiating point.
- The US and Europe, outside of the NATO framework, reasserts its security commitments embodied in the 1994 Budapest memorandum.

I think all of this is achievable. But absent the security commitment from Europe and the US, there is no reason for Ukraine to lay down arms. I think they'd rather fight to their last man, woman and child.
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This seems to be operating under the premise that Putin will agree with Ukraine joining the EU and getting security guarantees from Europe and the US as long as they don't join NATO. I don't think Putin would agree to that at all. The whole point for Putin is to be able to control and dominate a weak Ukraine. He can't do that if they're part of the EU and have a security guarantee from the US and Europe. That basically creates, in the aggregate, the reasons why Putin doesn't want Ukraine in NATO; he doesn't want them under either the economic influence of the West or protected militarily by the West,
 
Thank the good Lord that today’s Republicans were not around in the 1940’s or else the entire European continent and most of Africa would be speaking Deutsch, and the entire Pacific rim- and perhaps even some of the US West Coast – would be speaking Japanese.
 
Ramrouser said:
Biden did nothing to prevent Russia from invading Ukraine other than stating "DON'T" - real effective.
Then once the war started, all Biden/Blinken did was to keep shoveling weapons and money to Zelensky.
As CFord noted, they then put restrictions on the use of those weapons and in many cases, slow walked the delivery of the weapons - particularly the F-16s.
They never spoke to Putin or made any attempt to solve the problem.
They should have thrown everything into the spring/summer offensive of 2023. That was the push to expel the Russians from the Donbas. Once that failed, Ukraine was never going to have the manpower to mount a 2nd offensive. From then on it was only a defensive struggle on their part to hold the line.

If the the war continues, Ukraine loses its country as it doesn't have the manpower to maintain this war for several more years.
The Russians will never give up and have no issue sending millions of their men to die into the battle.

The negotiating process with Trump will be messy and ugly but it will get done.
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Millions of dead Russians isn't the worst possible
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.

What is your take on the days events?
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It is complete and total unadulterated bullshit that anyone here is happy with today.
 
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.

What is your take on the days events?
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Biden forking over weapons and cash, along with Europe, is literally what saved Ukraine. Your constant bad faith bullshit is irritating.
 
Ramrouser said:
Similar to yours. I would have preferred a more traditional diplomatic meeting between two allies.

It should have initially been a private meeting so they could air out their frustrations behind closed doors. Signing ceremony then, do a scripted joint presser and finish with lunch. This is especially true since clearly Trump and Vance do not like Zelensky and are tired of his schtick

I blame Zelensky and his team for not knowing his audience and reading the room. Showing up in his GI Joe Uniform (would it have been too much to put on a suit?) clearly irked Trump from the get go. Then, Zelensky felt the need to lecture and correct the President in the White House. Contrast this to Macron and Starmer who were real pros and made a genuine effort to act warmly and appropriately in the presence of Trump (he is who he is) and had done their homework in what to do and not to do in a meeting with this President.

It's very early in the negotiation process and everyone's nerves are frayed, particularly Ukraine's, but the process will continue on. Note it is reported that Zelensky and the Ukrainian team were begging for the meeting to not end. Trump loved that thinking he's put Ukraine in its place. But I think everyone looked bad today. It will play out but will be ugly. Putin is admittedly enjoying this for now as we, very publicly, sort out our issues with our ally/client but eventually we'll turn and demand concessions from Russia.
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Love that you focus on Zelinsky's attire. We are in agreement there. Now, what about Elon?
 
Huh? said:
I fear you are correct. It will be scary to live in a world in which a nuclear Germany, Japan and South Korea will reduce launch response times to a few minutes. When you add in the emerging missile shield technologies, the math will favor a first launch strike for both good and bad actors in the world.
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I don’t see a way around it. Nature abhors a vacuum and we’re leaving behind a big one.
 
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.
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IMG_3839.jpeg
You should take advantage of this weather and touch some grass.
 
Callatoroy said:
Pretty much. I think this board is happy the events turned out like they did today. If he is able to pull it off and achieves a peace deal then its a win for trump and they couldn't stomach that. If russia pulled out of ukraine today, including crimea, this board would find some reason to bitch. Today was bad. Optically really bad, but eventually it will get done for the reasons you mentioned. Acting as if biden was doing anything other than forking over weapons and cash is their default. When pressed to give details about what biden was doing to end the war the default is to insult somebody or something.
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Has anyone on the board said they are happy with the day's events? Of course not. This is a disgrace. I want peace. A peace negotiated with the weight of the US of freaking A thrown behind Ukraine to bring Russia to heel and to a settlement that accounts for what Russia has done. If Trump can truly negotiate a peace that is beneficial for Ukraine, not for Russia, I'll give him credit for it. But him literally siding with Putin against our ally is a disgrace. He is destroying a world order that has kept Americans largely safe and will replace it with a much more dangerous and hostile world, one where we have many fewer friends.
 
Ramrouser said:
Similar to yours. I would have preferred a more traditional diplomatic meeting between two allies.

It should have initially been a private meeting so they could air out their frustrations behind closed doors. Signing ceremony then, do a scripted joint presser and finish with lunch. This is especially true since clearly Trump and Vance do not like Zelensky and are tired of his schtick

I blame Zelensky and his team for not knowing his audience and reading the room. Showing up in his GI Joe Uniform (would it have been too much to put on a suit?) clearly irked Trump from the get go. Then, Zelensky felt the need to lecture and correct the President in the White House. Contrast this to Macron and Starmer who were real pros and made a genuine effort to act warmly and appropriately in the presence of Trump (he is who he is) and had done their homework in what to do and not to do in a meeting with this President.

It's very early in the negotiation process and everyone's nerves are frayed, particularly Ukraine's, but the process will continue on. Note it is reported that Zelensky and the Ukrainian team were begging for the meeting to not end. Trump loved that thinking he's put Ukraine in its place. But I think everyone looked bad today. It will play out but will be ugly. Putin is admittedly enjoying this for now as we, very publicly, sort out our issues with our ally/client but eventually we'll turn and demand concessions from Russia.
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your commentary here on zelenskyy is nauseating and absurd. he did nothing wrong. full stop. he always dresses like that and the entire interaction was recorded for the world to see - trump and vance are the ones who were aggressive and inappropriate. that was classic schoolyard bully behavior. pathetic.

and macron and starmer? france and england aren't in year three of a Russian invasion/war. get a fucking grip.
 
rodoheel said:
Has anyone on the board said they are happy with the day's events? Of course not. This is a disgrace. I want peace. A peace negotiated with the weight of the US of freaking A thrown behind Ukraine to bring Russia to heel and to a settlement that accounts for what Russia has done. If Trump can truly negotiate a peace that is beneficial for Ukraine, not for Russia, I'll give him credit for it. But him literally siding with Putin against our ally is a disgrace. He is destroying a world order that has kept Americans largely safe and will replace it with a much more dangerous and hostile world, one where we have many fewer friends.
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Well, but you see, we could’ve had all of that, were it not for our board Trumpers’ bizarre fixations on wondering about the genitalia of the people taking a leak or a dump in the stall next to them in a public restroom. Remember, you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
 
Callatoroy said:
Because you can't. You are stumped when pressed for details. Nothing about any deal with putin has been made public. So disingenuous and full of bullshit. Someone is being obtuse but it isn't me.
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I have enumerated my position on Ukraine and how Trump is fucking it up multiple times. I’m done explaining things to idiots like you.
 
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