Should Harris have continued with her more Populist messaging?

[Paine]

1. No, not 100%. But one would think that they would support the party that has consistently fought for their economic interests over the one who has opposed them, and continues to oppose them.

2. I'm not sure why "every structural force in the country that has hollowed out unions" would mean they won't vote for Democrats. Binary choice. It was Trump's court that turned right-to-work into a constitutional principle, at least for public sector unions (they will come for private sector ones next). Seems like they wouldn't like that.

3. You are correct that there are different types of unions and I don't know the breakdown.

4. This chicken-and-egg problem is at the heart of our disagreement, which is in large measure epistemic. Why would Democrats invest a lot of money in unions if they are only going to get 53%? And you will counter, why should the unions vote Dem if the Dems won't make that type of investment?

Still, to me at least, it seems not rational to bite the hand that has long fed you and maybe sometimes has slaps you, instead of biting the hand that has been trying to skewer you and roast you over a fire basically since unions began.

The unions can only do so much messaging to members when the Democrats, until very, very recently, have offered them little. It’s a hard sell for a lot of unions to make to their members when the messaging at the top of the ticket isn’t lining up with what the union is saying.

 

[superrific]

The Venn Diagram of people who say that it’s the voters fault that Kamala Harris lost and people who say Bernie Sanders would’ve lost at “Walter Mondale levels” is just one circle.

These people are everything that they claim progressive Democrats are. Telling American voters that they’re “out of touch with reality” was literally the Walter Mondale message.

I don't recall that being the Mondale message.

I don't think Bernie would lose at Mondale levels because there's no way he would lose the Dem strongholds to Trump. But I also don't think Bernie could have won because socialism is one of the worst labels to bear in American politics. If there was a guy just like Bernie, who called himself a liberal Democrat, avoided the word socialist or socialism in all respects, and didn't have lots of good things to say about Castro, then the conversation might be different. And again, that's part of the epistemic dilemma.

But I'm 100% positive that nobody who embraces the word socialist in any capacity can win an American presidential election -- not for quite a while, at least.

Also, I'm aware that my alternate-timeline Bernie sounds a lot like Liz Warren. Unfortunately, Warren has little charisma. She couldn't, at such a late date in her career, wash away her law professor vibe.

 

[BlueSmoke]

I don't think Democrats are out of touch with working Americans. I think most working Americans are out of touch with reality.

The real world is the real world. It doesn't matter what reality Americans are in touch with. Elections have to be won. Period.

Now lets talk reality. Being in the construction industry, over the years I have written many a checks on Friday's where the sub raced to get the check cashed. If it was after hours, many would have to go to a check cashing service . They had a bill collector on them or they needed food on the table.

For these working Americans, they have to focus on immediate needs and it carries over to voting. The best many of these voters can do is simply focus on which side seems to support their economic needs or better yet the economy. These voters are always, always in a near panic whether there will be a downturn in the economy. Will the phone ring for paying work or not? If the phone don't ring, there isn't going to be money the coming Friday.

 

[BlueSmoke]

On the last day of October, I saw a Times Radio podcast with NBC's Chuck Todd. He was asked about the Harris Campaign's message pivot after the debate. He stated that the Harris Campaign had calculated that they could not win unless they could pull some Nicki Halley, Republican voters.

Think about that? If he's correct, then they knew they had to throw up a Hail Merry. Its never good when in the last weeks of a campaign you have to go steel GOP voters.

Why is that? Well its pretty clear Trump has stolen blue collar, non college educated Americans from the Democrats.

 

[Paine]

Staring Into the Trumpian Abyss

We are about to be in for a long period of suffering in American and global politics at the hands of a deranged, reactionary president who will be up against little in the way of an opposition party.

jacobin.com

 

[Mulberry Heel]

On the last day of October, I saw a Times Radio podcast with NBC's Chuck Todd. He was asked about the Harris Campaign's message pivot after the debate. He stated that the Harris Campaign had calculated that they could not win unless they could pull some Nicki Halley, Republican voters.

Think about that? If he's correct, then they knew they had to throw up a Hail Merry. Its never good when in the last weeks of a campaign you have to go steel GOP voters.

Why is that? Well its pretty clear Trump has stolen blue collar, non college educated Americans from the Democrats.

If nothing else, this disastrous election has hopefully cured even the Democratic high command of the fiction that they can somehow win enough Republicans over to their side to make a real difference. I've read that after all of the Harris campaign's strenuous efforts win over Haley Republicans, she basically got the exact same percentage of the GOP vote as Biden did in 2020 - about 6%. If Democrats are going to have a chance to win in the future they're going to have to either start winning back minority voters or win back some working-class whites. Chasing Republicans just isn't going to cut it.

 

[Paine]

Corporate Donors Guided Kamala Harris to Defeat

Rich donors like Mark Cuban boasted about their success in shaping Kamala Harris’s campaign and inducing her to ditch progressive economic policies. We shouldn’t let them shrug off responsibility for a disastrous defeat.

jacobin.com

 

[BlueSmoke]

If Democrats are going to have a chance to win in the future they're going to have to either start winning back minority voters or win back some working-class whites.

Seem like I saw that 57% of voters are non-college educated. Just math and you can't fight it.

 

[Mulberry Heel]

Seem like I saw that 57% of voters are non-college educated. Just math and you can't fight it.

The figures I've seen place it closer to 60%, but either way you're right. For Democrats to stay competitive they simply have to start winning back minority voters they've gradually lost since 2012 or working-class whites. Without that they're never going to win another presidential election or likely ever win control of the Senate back either. As you said, the math just isn't there.

 

[farce©]

The party made it clear to progressives that the they would only tolerate their progressivism on matters of identity. Identity politics is not threatening at all to the status quo of the current internal party apparatus or the power structure of the country at-large. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

Who exactly is “the party” and how did they enforce such a (dubious) mandate on the squad? What is your source for such a conspiracy?

 

[lightbluenc]

Corporate Donors Guided Kamala Harris to Defeat

Rich donors like Mark Cuban boasted about their success in shaping Kamala Harris’s campaign and inducing her to ditch progressive economic policies. We shouldn’t let them shrug off responsibility for a disastrous defeat.

jacobin.com

Felt like her campaign changed drastically from the first 3-4 weeks when it was attacking Trump, riling him up and talking about the economy is broader terms, and how to fix it. After the DNC it was very much different.

 

[Paine]

Who exactly is “the party” and how did they enforce such a (dubious) mandate on the squad? What is your source for such a conspiracy?

I’m not alleging a grand conspiracy by shadowy party insiders in smoke filled back rooms. This is about the internal pressures that are inherent on left politicians trying to operate within the Democratic Party. The proof is in the pudding. Look at what squad members are left after this cycle and how their messaging has changed between 2018 and now.

Recommended reading:

https://a.co/d/hrCe5eD

 

[stankeylegjones]

The real world is the real world. It doesn't matter what reality Americans are in touch with. Elections have to be won. Period.

Now lets talk reality. Being in the construction industry, over the years I have written many a checks on Friday's where the sub raced to get the check cashed. If it was after hours, many would have to go to a check cashing service . They had a bill collector on them or they needed food on the table.

For these working Americans, they have to focus on immediate needs and it carries over to voting. The best many of these voters can do is simply focus on which side seems to support their economic needs or better yet the economy. These voters are always, always in a near panic whether there will be a downturn in the economy. Will the phone ring for paying work or not? If the phone don't ring, there isn't going to be money the coming Friday.

You highlight a major issue that, unfortunately, several here can't seem to comprehend (or willfully ignore).

 

[dukeman92]

The real world is the real world. It doesn't matter what reality Americans are in touch with. Elections have to be won. Period.

Now lets talk reality. Being in the construction industry, over the years I have written many a checks on Friday's where the sub raced to get the check cashed. If it was after hours, many would have to go to a check cashing service . They had a bill collector on them or they needed food on the table.

For these working Americans, they have to focus on immediate needs and it carries over to voting. The best many of these voters can do is simply focus on which side seems to support their economic needs or better yet the economy. These voters are always, always in a near panic whether there will be a downturn in the economy. Will the phone ring for paying work or not? If the phone don't ring, there isn't going to be money the coming Friday.

None of what you said is some sort of profound revelation. Most working class Americans struggle. And in the "real world" we now know that they vote against their best interests in droves.

 

[LeoBloom]

You highlight a major issue that, unfortunately, several here can't seem to comprehend (or willfully ignore).

But then what is the answer? Messaging? The Dems need better messaging?
I get it. Economic anxiety for many people is real and it is the most important political issue for them. OK.
Well, the economy does better under Democrats. But these people are not getting that message. Why? Is it that they don't appear to have serious empathy? Bill Clinton's "I feel your pain?" It can't be that. Trump has no empathy. Rather than feeling their pain, he stokes their anger. He says, "you should be pissed off."

For decades and decades conservatives preached that "liberal" is a dirty word. "Liberals" hate America and hate America's values. "Liberals" are the enemy of the American way of life. That messaging goes way back. Fox News and other right wing outlets spread the message even more rapidly over the airwaves. Social media has spread it even more broadly and allowed people to believe that they have "sources" that show this. You can find whatever you want to support your beliefs via the internet and social media.

Personally, I think the Dems should embrace a liberal agenda and call it what it is. Advocate for universal healthcare. Advocate for...name it. Let's do it. But we have to understand that we have to combat decades and decades of right wing messaging.

 

[Paine]

But then what is the answer? Messaging? The Dems need better messaging?
I get it. Economic anxiety for many people is real and it is the most important political issue for them. OK.
Well, the economy does better under Democrats. But these people are not getting that message. Why? Is it that they don't appear to have serious empathy? Bill Clinton's "I feel your pain?" It can't be that. Trump has no empathy. Rather than feeling their pain, he stokes their anger. He says, "you should be pissed off."

For decades and decades conservatives preached that "liberal" is a dirty word. "Liberals" hate America and hate America's values. "Liberals" are the enemy of the American way of life. That messaging goes way back. Fox News and other right wing outlets spread the message even more rapidly over the airwaves. Social media has spread it even more broadly and allowed people to believe that they have "sources" that show this. You can find whatever you want to support your beliefs via the internet and social media.

Personally, I think the Dems should embrace a liberal agenda and call it what it is. Advocate for universal healthcare. Advocate for...name it. Let's do it. But we have to understand that we have to combat decades and decades of right wing messaging.

I think you’re hitting on an important point in terms of embracing the messaging.

It feels like Democrats spend way too much time running away from their policy positions because they’re still operating with a mindset that was crystallized in the 1980s and 1990s.

Truth is, most Americans like liberal and/or progressive policy solutions. Dems tie themselves in knots and then wonder why no one trusts what they’re saying.

 

[Peppers49]

But then what is the answer? Messaging? The Dems need better messaging?
I get it. Economic anxiety for many people is real and it is the most important political issue for them. OK.
Well, the economy does better under Democrats. But these people are not getting that message. Why? Is it that they don't appear to have serious empathy? Bill Clinton's "I feel your pain?" It can't be that. Trump has no empathy. Rather than feeling their pain, he stokes their anger. He says, "you should be pissed off."

For decades and decades conservatives preached that "liberal" is a dirty word. "Liberals" hate America and hate America's values. "Liberals" are the enemy of the American way of life. That messaging goes way back. Fox News and other right wing outlets spread the message even more rapidly over the airwaves. Social media has spread it even more broadly and allowed people to believe that they have "sources" that show this. You can find whatever you want to support your beliefs via the internet and social media.

Personally, I think the Dems should embrace a liberal agenda and call it what it is. Advocate for universal healthcare. Advocate for...name it. Let's do it. But we have to understand that we have to combat decades and decades of right wing messaging.

All of this is sad but true, especially the part about how conservatives have hammered home very simple narratives like “liberal” being a dirty, anti-American word. If anyone brings up something that would be objectively beneficial to the average American like universal healthcare, all conservative politicians have to do is cry “socialism” over and over again and voila, the average American will proudly vote against their own self interest because they associate that very simply messaging with evil communism or whatever. Then to your point about media/social media, they will always find some pundit or grifter out there that makes content that validates their beliefs.

It is definitely an uphill battle trying to untangle decades of Fox News propaganda, but you still have to at least try. I agree that the solution needs to focus on tweaking and simplifying the messaging. Identify the handful of policy issues that matter to the average American and then be clear and consistent with how it’s broadcasted. In terms of presidential candidates, I think the next one has to be someone that comes across as more serious and direct when it comes to campaigning. No need to stoop to the Republican strategy of using fear and paranoia to whip people into a frenzy, just someone who can be straightforward and less “meme-y” (for lack of a better word) than Kamala.

 

[LeoBloom]

I think you’re hitting on an important point in terms of embracing the messaging.

It feels like Democrats spend way too much time running away from their policy positions because they’re still operating with a mindset that was crystallized in the 1980s and 1990s.

Truth is, most Americans like liberal and/or progressive policy solutions. Dems tie themselves in knots and then wonder why no one trusts what they’re saying.

I'm with you on Dems not tying themselves into knots.

Be who you are.

 

[LeoBloom]

All of this is sad but true, especially the part about how conservatives have hammered home very simple narratives like “liberal” being a dirty, anti-American word. If anyone brings up something that would be objectively beneficial to the average American like universal healthcare, all conservative politicians have to do is cry “socialism” over and over again and voila, the average American will proudly vote against their own self interest because they associate that very simply messaging with evil communism or whatever. Then to your point about media/social media, they will always find some pundit or grifter out there that makes content that validates their beliefs.

It is definitely an uphill battle trying to untangle decades of Fox News propaganda, but you still have to at least try. I agree that the solution needs to focus on tweaking and simplifying the messaging. Identify the handful of policy issues that matter to the average American and then be clear and consistent with how it’s broadcasted. In terms of presidential candidates, I think the next one has to be someone that comes across as more serious and direct when it comes to campaigning. No need to stoop to the Republican strategy of using fear and paranoia to whip people into a frenzy, just someone who can be straightforward and less “meme-y” (for lack of a better word) than Kamala.

I think we need someone who can direct anger. I know, I know...that is not who we want to be. But it seems now, appealing to the better angels of peoples' natures is not going to work. We need some fire. Make people angry about not having universal health care. Make people angry about issues.

I may just be spouting crap because I'm still too close to what happened. Maybe anger is not the answer, but it sure as hell seems to work for the Pubs.

 

[Paine]

I think we need someone who can direct anger. I know, I know...that is not who we want to be. But it seems now, appealing to the better angels of peoples' natures is not going to work. We need some fire. Make people angry about not having universal health care. Make people angry about issues.

I may just be spouting crap because I'm still too close to what happened. Maybe anger is not the answer, but it sure as hell seems to work for the Pubs.

Americans should know by now that backlash is the most powerful political force. Harris aligned herself with the ruling class and the Biden administration at a time when 75% of the country says we’re headed in the wrong direction.