Should Harris have continued with her more Populist messaging?

[Paine]

I would certainly welcome, in the 2028 Dem primary, a candidate who delivers that message. It may well be that primary voters respond to it. I just have a hard time believing that either Dem leadership, or Dem voters, are going to conclude from 44% of voters saying that Harris was "too liberal" that we can win by moving left on economic issues. Even if you can convince them that the "too liberal" part had more to do with.

IMO whether the Democrats' 2026 and 2028 message on economic issues is going to be successful will have way more to do with what happens to the economy in the next 2-4 years than what Dems' specific message is.

Also, didn't we effectively see an economic populist candidacy from William Jennings Bryan in 1896? It didn't go great.

WJB actually did pretty well in 96. He faced the same issue that a populist Democrat would face today: a flood of money from industry titans.

 

[rodoheel]

I also have a hard time believing the Dem leadership will think it’s the right thing to do. They’re already taking away the lesson that voters seeing her as “too liberal” means the party should run away from any semblance of left positions and just completely capitulate to right wing framing on a number of topics. Despite that not working time after time.

I don't think that's the answer. At least it's not my answer. I just think the electorate is so scrambled up by both malicious and uninformed misinformation that the only thing that's going to convince them that Republican economic policy is bad is to watch Republican policy fail. I really think the "too liberal" thing has way more to do with social issues than economic issues. I just don't think Dem economic proposals were the problem. I think highly negative (somewhat irrational) feelings about the economy were the problem. I simply don't think there was an economic policy message Harris could have delivered that would have made people change their minds about the economy being bad.

 

[Paine]

I don't think that's the answer. At least it's not my answer. I just think the electorate is so scrambled up by both malicious and uninformed misinformation that the only thing that's going to convince them that Republican economic policy is bad is to watch Republican policy fail. I really think the "too liberal" thing has way more to do with social issues than economic issues. I just don't think Dem economic proposals were the problem. I think highly negative (somewhat irrational) feelings about the economy were the problem. I simply don't think there was an economic policy message Harris could have delivered that would have made people change their minds about the economy being bad.

All fair points and I don’t think either of us can say with certainty what’s right.

If we’re right in our politics though, the right will fail. It will be the job of the left to message against the failure, create a winning coalition, and implement systemic change to address the issues we’re talking about.

I think we can position ourselves well for this starting as early as 2026.

 

[superrific]

thing has way more to do with social issues than economic issues.

I don't know why it's so hard to see what it's so hard to see what is going on. Ever since Trump started running, his support has always come disproportionately from a) people with hostile racial attitudes; and b) people who live in areas going brown.

And what did he do this cycle? It was almost pure unadulterated racism and sexism. I mean, he couldn't really have been more explicit about it. He even stopped talking about "the border" for the most part. The message shifted into gangs invading America. He didn't talk about or tweet about "no taxes on tips" since early October, from what I've seen.

They made their closing argument at MSG, and it was the Bund That Won. I realize that it's a hard pill to swallow because it's a pessimistic view. We always want it to be something besides race, because we can change policy but we can't change racial attitudes. But it's not really about anything other than that. Race, gender, sexuality.

 

[superrific]

Yeah, if you think John Edwards and Jimmy Carter are examples of left wing populists, I really don’t know what to say other than that’s an incredibly blinkered view of the range of political possibility.

The point is that neither fared well. You're saying, "well, this populism light bombed but if we go big on populism, then we'll win." I mean, maybe, but do you think it's a persuasive position?

 

[aGDevil2k]

Jimmy Carter and Biden/Harris = Inflation killed them.

 

[336Heel]

There's nothing Harris could have done. The dems screwed the pooch by having the nominee be Harris. No way to distance her from Biden and his low numbers. Unfortunately there was also no way they could have not made her the nominee given she was the minority female sitting VP. There would have been no good optics for passing over her for a white male nominee.

 

[Paine]

I don't know why it's so hard to see what it's so hard to see what is going on. Ever since Trump started running, his support has always come disproportionately from a) people with hostile racial attitudes; and b) people who live in areas going brown.

And what did he do this cycle? It was almost pure unadulterated racism and sexism. I mean, he couldn't really have been more explicit about it. He even stopped talking about "the border" for the most part. The message shifted into gangs invading America. He didn't talk about or tweet about "no taxes on tips" since early October, from what I've seen.

They made their closing argument at MSG, and it was the Bund That Won. I realize that it's a hard pill to swallow because it's a pessimistic view. We always want it to be something besides race, because we can change policy but we can't change racial attitudes. But it's not really about anything other than that. Race, gender, sexuality.

There is left wing thought that exists after the cultural turn you know. If it all boils down to racism and sexism, how has any workers solidarity movement or labor movement ever succeeded? How has any left wing project ever succeeded?

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Messaging. Not policy.

She had no sound bites. Nothing you could latch onto, make meme's about, shout to your friends.

We're Not Going Back sounds good as a slogan, but didn't inspire people to go to the polls.

"When we fight, we wiiiiin." It might have worked but it sounded like a Grandmother when Harris said it and they played it over and over.

 

[Paine]

The point is that neither fared well. You're saying, "well, this populism light bombed but if we go big on populism, then we'll win." I mean, maybe, but do you think it's a persuasive position?

I don’t think Edwards or Carter were even populism lite, tbf.

I wasn’t alive, so I guess I could be wrong. Could you provide some examples of how they ran a populist campaign other than a single speech by Edwards? Well I guess I was alive for Edwards 08. Don’t remember anything about him though, I was 9.

 

[mpaer]

I don’t think Edwards or Carter were even populism lite, tbf.

I wasn’t alive, so I guess I could be wrong. Could you provide some examples of how they ran a populist campaign other than a single speech by Edwards? Well I guess I was alive for Edwards 08. Don’t remember anything about him though, I was 9.

John Edwards primary was folksy populsm "Deddy worked at the mill" ( I mean he might have been General MGr-I don't know) Once he became VP his handlers totally repurposed his message

 

[HintonJamesHeel]

Harris +8 in those making over $100k (Biden was +5)

Never go to a religious service (Harris +26)

No religion (Harris + 40)

College grads (+8 Harris)

Post-grad degrees (+24 Harris)

The party has become a college-educated, non-religious party. Debate whether that’s good or bad but that won’t connect with working people and especially not Hispanics, which is the largest growing population.

 

[Paine]

Make fun of Jacobin if you want, but this article was pretty good.

It does a better job than I have of getting to the heart of my aesthetics point. That is, regardless of what Harris’ policies were or weren’t, the Democratic Party’s aesthetic and brand are shot among working class voters.

It’s Happening Again

And until Democrats can find a way to win back some large chunk of working-class voters, Donald Trump’s successors will be favored in the next presidential election too.

jacobin.com

 

[rodoheel]

Harris +8 in those making over $100k (Biden was +5)

Never go to a religious service (Harris +26)

No religion (Harris + 40)

College grads (+8 Harris)

Post-grad degrees (+24 Harris)

The party has become a college-educated, non-religious party. Debate whether that’s good or bad but that won’t connect with working people and especially not Hispanics, which is the largest growing population.

Winning college educated voters and winning working class voters are not antithetical to each other. The party doesn't need to do worse with college-educated people to do better with working-class people.

 

[SnoopRob]

Authoritarian populism is waaaay easier to sell that economic populism (or any other kind).

Authoritarian populism isn't a distinct thing as a "type" of populism. Authoritarianism and populism aren't even on the same axis.

Populism is an ideology based on giving "the masses" what they want freed from trade-offs or from the costs of such moves.

Authoritarianism is a manner of ruling where power is placed into the hands of one person or one small group and those who oppose this person/group are categorized as enemies and marginalized/oppressed.

You can have a combination of authoritarianism and populism, but that can also include economic populism or social populism or whatever.

 

[superrific]

There is left wing thought that exists after the cultural turn you know. If it all boils down to racism and sexism, how has any workers solidarity movement or labor movement ever succeeded? How has any left wing project ever succeeded?

1. Well, to a first approximation, workers solidarity movements fare better in Europe where, until very recently, the population was largely homogenous and thus more receptive to solidarity; but also

2. Social media and the internet have flipped the script. It used to be that you had to hang out with the people you worked with, or lived around. As we know from decades of social science research (that was the impetus behind diversity initiatives), actual interactions with people of different races helps moderate racism. As you'd expect. [And that, of course, was one reason for segregation. ]

But you don't have to be at all interested in your neighbors any more. You can hang out with other people like you, no matter where you live. And then groupthink and affinity bias and racheting extremism takes over.

3. I know I'm being pessimistic as hell. You're trying to be optimistic. You're trying to see a future. I'm really struggling with that right now. In fact, I'm kind of struggling with a lot of things right now.

 

[Paine]

1. Well, to a first approximation, workers solidarity movements fare better in Europe where, until very recently, the population was largely homogenous and thus more receptive to solidarity; but also

2. Social media and the internet have flipped the script. It used to be that you had to hang out with the people you worked with, or lived around. As we know from decades of social science research (that was the impetus behind diversity initiatives), actual interactions with people of different races helps moderate racism. As you'd expect. [And that, of course, was one reason for segregation. ]

But you don't have to be at all interested in your neighbors any more. You can hang out with other people like you, no matter where you live. And then groupthink and affinity bias and racheting extremism takes over.

3. I know I'm being pessimistic as hell. You're trying to be optimistic. You're trying to see a future. I'm really struggling with that right now. In fact, I'm kind of struggling with a lot of things right now.

Your social media point is well taken and important. I think the way to combat that is a revitalization of workers solidarity across racial lines. Idk how that happens, but I know it has to happen for us to get past the issues you talk about in your second paragraph.

 

[superrific]

I think the way to combat that is a revitalization of workers solidarity across racial lines.

If you figure it out, let me know and I will join you. But the left has been trying this since the 60s and it just has not proved durable.

And these days, Fox News/conservative media + social media makes it even harder.

To some extent, we are victims of prosperity. What we do know is that people will pull together in a crisis. 08 Obama showed that. When the shit REALLY hits the fan, people can get together. Racism and exclusion can be costly. But most working class people in America are prosperous in absolute terms. Everyone has a mobile phone; most people have cars or trucks and often they are not cheap. We have computers and computer games, and cable TV with a million different channels and if you don't want cable, you can stream over the internet.

Americans are not economically stressed enough to put aside the racism. I don't mean that as a prescription or even a well-considered view. It's a gut reaction. But I don't think it's wholly wrong either.

 

[Paine]

If you figure it out, let me know and I will join you. But the left has been trying this since the 60s and it just has not proved durable.

And these days, Fox News/conservative media + social media makes it even harder.

To some extent, we are victims of prosperity. What we do know is that people will pull together in a crisis. 08 Obama showed that. When the shit REALLY hits the fan, people can get together. Racism and exclusion can be costly. But most working class people in America are prosperous in absolute terms. Everyone has a mobile phone; most people have cars or trucks and often they are not cheap. We have computers and computer games, and cable TV with a million different channels and if you don't want cable, you can stream over the internet.

Americans are not economically stressed enough to put aside the racism. I don't mean that as a prescription or even a well-considered view. It's a gut reaction. But I don't think it's wholly wrong either.

I think plenty of Americans are economically stressed enough to put aside race and gender in order to confront the ruling class.

The issue is the class structure that exists under capitalism and how it functions in regards to people’s resistance to the boss.

We’re so far away from any kind of actual working class politics that it’s theoretical. The left needs to get back into the business of listening to and organizing the working class instead of assuming that workers are just idiots acting against their own class interest.

I think most working people are rational. If they’re behaving in a way we think is irrational, we should analyze and examine this behavior instead of just calling them racist troglodytes.

Are there idiots who are working class? Yes. But I think the majority, and definitely an electoral majority, are rational about their circumstances and want the left to listen to them rather than preach to them.

 

[superrific]

I think plenty of Americans are economically stressed enough to put aside race and gender in order to confront the ruling class.

The issue is the class structure that exists under capitalism and how it functions in regards to people’s resistance to the boss.

We’re so far away from any kind of actual working class politics that it’s theoretical. The left needs to get back into the business of listening to and organizing the working class instead of assuming that workers are just idiots acting against their own class interest.

I think most working people are rational. If they’re behaving in a way we think is irrational, we should analyze and examine this behavior instead of just calling them racist troglodytes.

Are there idiots who are working class? Yes. But I think the majority, and definitely an electoral majority, are rational about their circumstances and want the left to listen to them rather than preach to them.

It was easier for me to believe all that before 2010.

I do not think working people are rational about politics. I think a lot of people are not rational about politics. The amount of crazy shit that happens in politics so dwarfs the crazy shit everywhere else.

I'd be happy to listen to them, but I can't when they are talking about Haitians eating pets.