Surgeon general calls for cancer warning labels on alcohol

[Peppers49]

I suppose there is argument for a small sliver of folks that can drink 4-6 drinks a day for 30 years and not be classified as having alcohol use disorder; I simply haven’t met them amongst the hundreds of people I’ve encountered, inpatient, with that pattern of drinking.

Also, withdrawals are a single criteria amongst several. Alcohol Use Disorder: A Comparison Between DSM–IV and DSM–5 | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA). AUD includes criteria like [paraphrase] “I have to drink more than I use to for the same effect” and “I’ve engaged in risky activity during or soon after drinking (eg drive, operated machinery, went swimming, risky sexual encounter)”. You only need 2 of 11 criteria for a diagnosis.

Maybe a better way to phrase it is “it’s exceedingly unlikely that someone drinking 4-6 drinks everyday, for 20-30 years, doesn’t have AUD.”

Yeah I have a very hard time believing that anyone that has 4-6 drinks every single day over the course of decades isn’t physically and mentally dependent on alcohol on some level. Let’s call a spade a spade lol.

 

[hedge]

Super suggested that I might like something called "The Persecution and Assassination Of Jean-Paul Marat As Performed By The Inmates Of the Asylum Of Cherendon Under The Direction Of The Marquis De Sade"

I stayed at the Chelsea Hotel over New Year's with my nephew, I found him in the rather large bathtub at some point during the wee hours, Marat-like as you've ever seen, but fortunately not dead...

 

[tar pal]

I don’t think alcohol will be like smoking has become for a number reasons, among them: (1) there is a different culture around consuming alcohol than there is/was with smoking; (2) there is no second-hand impact of alcohol consumption like there is with smoking; and (3) it doesn’t have the strong, lingering smell to the extent that smoking does, which can bother people significantly. But I would not be surprised to see fewer people drink, or to see people drink less. I don’t know what health impacts those THC-infused drinks have, but maybe they’re the wave of the future.

With all due respect I disagree somewhat, on #2 there is second hand impact with alcohol all be it is on a different level, IE, deaths due to drunk drivers, families being broken up due to alcohol abuse, violence due to intoxication, accidental deaths in other ways. I believe alcohol is the biggest drug issue in this country.

 

[Icky Mettle]

With all due respect I disagree somewhat, on #2 there is second hand impact with alcohol all be it is on a different level, IE, deaths due to drunk drivers, families being broken up due to alcohol abuse, violence due to intoxication, accidental deaths in other ways. I believe alcohol is the biggest drug issue in this country.

In my initial post, I said there is no secondhand impact with drinking “like there is with smoking.” The secondhand hand impacts you mention are very different than those with smoking.

What I mean is that if one is consuming alcoholic beverages in close proximity to another person, that other person’s health is not impacted by the mere consumption. With smoking, on the other hand, if one is smoking a cigarette within close proximity to another person, that other person’s health can be impacted merely by the smoking. Because of that, it has led to smoking bans in public places, which has has had a significant impact on the numberof people who smoke. Also because of that, people quit smoking to avoid exposing people to the effects of smoking. For example, I know people who quit smoking once they had kids to avoid ever putting their kids in a position where they could take in secondhand smoke.

Also, what you are referring to is not the impact of the act of consuming alcoholic beverages by itself. You are referring to the impacts caused by alcohol abuse or drinking irresponsibly. The act of consuming alcoholic beverages by itself, even when done in close proximity to other people, does not have the secondhand impact. The act of smoking cigarettes by itself (if it is done in close proximity to others) does.

If I have a glass of wine with dinner every night while I sit and have dinner with my family, it will not impact their health in any way. If I were to smoke a cigarette or two with my meal every night while sitting there with my family, it could impact their health.

Millions of people who drink do so responsibly, and it has no ill health effects on anyone else even when having a drink near other people. Anyone who smokes around other people can expose those people to potential ill health effects.

Even taking the impacts of drinking you mention into consideration, it is the unique nature of the secondhand impact of smoking that has led to a significant decrease in the number of people who smoke.

 

[Heelsandeers]

Attempting a dry January for the first time

Maybe two weeks is the better gauge but not feeling any difference on day 8

Not a daily drinker but was up to several daily over the holiday break

 

[superrific]

I stayed at the Chelsea Hotel over New Year's with my nephew, I found him in the rather large bathtub at some point during the wee hours, Marat-like as you've ever seen, but fortunately not dead...

Isn't that where Janis Joplin died? Or was it just where she stayed when Leonard Cohen claimed to have slept with her and was unimpressed?

 

[Zoo_View]

Janis Joplin died in a motel in Los Angeles.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

Attempting a dry January for the first time

Maybe two weeks is the better gauge but not feeling any difference on day 8

Not a daily drinker but was up to several daily over the holiday break

When I did it the first time it was more about proving to myself I could stop. I almost made it the first or second time but a social event got in the way. Pretty close but maybe missed the last weekend. Then it became something I did every year and it was easier as I drank less.

I don't remember ever feeling so much healthier or better during dry January. I do remember feeling worse when I started back in February, mostly because I wasn't getting a deep sleep after having a couple of drinks.

 

[hedge]

Isn't that where Janis Joplin died? Or was it just where she stayed when Leonard Cohen claimed to have slept with her and was unimpressed?

The latter. Good song. Sid killed Nancy in the Chelsea (after seeing the film Sid and Nancy, I would've killed her long before that). They've done some renovations since then. A friend went to see the new Bob Dylan movie last weekend, she said there was a scene in the movie set at the Chelsea (he supposedly wrote Visions of Johanna when he lived there).

We were at the bar/restaurant downstairs, my buddy swore that he saw Chrissy Hynde sitting at a table and admonished my nephew to get her autograph to give to his dad, who was/is a Pretenders fan. My nephew balked so my buddy went to get it. He brought back the autograph, signed Christy Hyne. It wasn't her but he asked her to give an autograph anyway and got a picture. Yes, she had dark hair cut more or less similar to Chrissy's back in the day and was about the same age but that was it...

 

[superrific]

The latter. Good song. Sid killed Nancy in the Chelsea (after seeing the film Sid and Nancy, I would've killed her long before that). They've done some renovations since then. A friend went to see the new Bob Dylan movie last weekend, she said there was a scene in the movie set at the Chelsea (he supposedly wrote Visions of Johanna when he lived there). We were at the bar/restaurant downstairs, my buddy swore that he saw Chrissy Hynde sitting at a table and admonished my nephew to get her autograph to give to his dad, who was/is a Pretenders fan. My nephew balked so my buddy went to get it. He brought back the autograph, signed Christy Hyne. It wasn't her but he asked her to give an autograph anyway and got a picture. Yes, she had dark hair cut more or less similar to Chrissy's back in the day and was about the same age but that was it...

Ah yes, Sid and Nancy. That's what I was thinking of. I knew somebody died there.

I never liked that song. I admittedly not really a Leonard Cohen fan, but that was a needless cheap shot.

 

[hedge]

I'm a Cohen fan. Never thought he implied that he wasn't impressed with the sex in that song, which would've been a cheap shot. If anything, he was self-deprecating ("You told me again you preferred handsome men, but for me you would make an exception"). Admittedly the ending comes off a little cold but I think he was just being honest and it wasn't really a dig at Janis...

 

[tar pal]

In my initial post, I said there is no secondhand impact with drinking “like there is with smoking.” The secondhand hand impacts you mention are very different than those with smoking.

What I mean is that if one is consuming alcoholic beverages in close proximity to another person, that other person’s health is not impacted by the mere consumption. With smoking, on the other hand, if one is smoking a cigarette within close proximity to another person, that other person’s health can be impacted merely by the smoking. Because of that, it has led to smoking bans in public places, which has has had a significant impact on the numberof people who smoke. Also because of that, people quit smoking to avoid exposing people to the effects of smoking. For example, I know people who quit smoking once they had kids to avoid ever putting their kids in a position where they could take in secondhand smoke.

Also, what you are referring to is not the impact of the act of consuming alcoholic beverages by itself. You are referring to the impacts caused by alcohol abuse or drinking irresponsibly. The act of consuming alcoholic beverages by itself, even when done in close proximity to other people, does not have the secondhand impact. The act of smoking cigarettes by itself (if it is done in close proximity to others) does.

If I have a glass of wine with dinner every night while I sit and have dinner with my family, it will not impact their health in any way. If I were to smoke a cigarette or two with my meal every night while sitting there with my family, it could impact their health.

Millions of people who drink do so responsibly, and it has no ill health effects on anyone else even when having a drink near other people. Anyone who smokes around other people can expose those people to potential ill health effects.

Even taking the impacts of drinking you mention into consideration, it is the unique nature of the secondhand impact of smoking that has led to a significant decrease in the number of people who smoke.

Alcohol is the most deadly drug in America but it is the accepted drug of choice, hence it does not get scrutinized and evaluated as harshly as other killers. It can also be the cruelest and most abusive as it lawful and seen as an overall non-issue while entrapping the drinker and those around them in a cycle of hurt and pain.

 

[finesse]

Alcohol is the most deadly drug in America but it is the accepted drug of choice, hence it does not get scrutinized and evaluated as harshly as other killers. It can also be the cruelest and most abusive as it lawful and seen as an overall non-issue while entrapping the drinker and those around them in a cycle of hurt and pain.

And you'd have to wonder how the last four categories of opioid abuse would drop if there was legal access to unadulterated and precisely measured dosages for users.

On an individual basis, I'm not that fond of the idea of opioids being legalized. As a society, we'd be better undermining illicit drug trafficking, protecting users by maintaining quality control and educating the public by doing so. About the only thing worse than being a nanny state is being selective about it.

 

[Icky Mettle]

Alcohol is the most deadly drug in America but it is the accepted drug of choice, hence it does not get scrutinized and evaluated as harshly as other killers. It can also be the cruelest and most abusive as it lawful and seen as an overall non-issue while entrapping the drinker and those around them in a cycle of hurt and pain.

Okay. But that’s beside the point I was making with regard to the sharp decline in smoking. If you sit in a room with a bunch of people around you who are consuming alcoholic beverages, their consumption will have no impact on your physical health. If you sit in a room with a bunch of people smoking cigarettes around you, it can impact your physical health. It was for that reason that most (all?) states banned smoking in businesses open to the public (like bars and restaurants). If one’s consumption of alcohol could harm the liver of someone sitting near them, then you might see similar types of bans for alcohol. But because there is no such immediate health risk (meaning those around someone consuming alcohol are not exposed to the same physical health consequences as the person consuming the drink as the result of that person’s consumption), such restrictions on alcohol use in public establishments are unlikely. Moreover, outside of being compelled not to smoke based on smoking bans, for the reasons those smoking bans were put into place, people may choose not to smoke around other people, which provides incentive not to smoke at all.

There are plenty of health-related reasons not to drink, both in how it can impact the drinkers’ own health and how one’s drinking has the potential to impact others, but the consequences are of a different nature than smoking, and it is the nature of the consequences of smoking that have led to its decline.

If I’m considering all the reasons not to have a drink, one thing that warrants no consideration is whether my consumption of an alcoholic beverage can expose others around me to the internal physical health effects that I can be exposed to by my consumption of that beverage.

 

[tar pal]

Okay. But that’s beside the point I was making with regard to the sharp decline in smoking. If you sit in a room with a bunch of people around you who are consuming alcoholic beverages, their consumption will have no impact on your physical health. If you sit in a room with a bunch of people smoking cigarettes around you, it can impact your physical health. It was for that reason that most (all?) states banned smoking in businesses open to the public (like bars and restaurants). If one’s consumption of alcohol could harm the liver of someone sitting near them, then you might see similar types of bans for alcohol. But because there is no such immediate health risk (meaning those around someone consuming alcohol are not exposed to the same physical health consequences as the person consuming the drink as the result of that person’s consumption), such restrictions on alcohol use in public establishments are unlikely. Moreover, outside of being compelled not to smoke based on smoking bans, for the reasons those smoking bans were put into place, people may choose not to smoke around other people, which provides incentive not to smoke at all.

There are plenty of health-related reasons not to drink, both in how it can impact the drinkers’ own health and how one’s drinking has the potential to impact others, but the consequences are of a different nature than smoking, and it is the nature of the consequences of smoking that have led to its decline.

If I’m considering all the reasons not to have a drink, one thing that warrants no consideration is whether my consumption of an alcoholic beverage can expose others around me to the internal physical health effects that I can be exposed to by my consumption of that beverage.

I understand your point and agree with cigs being an issue for the smoker and second handers. Cigs are now justly frowned upon by society but amazingly there is very little social shaming when it comes to alcohol. Contrary wise it appears to be celebrated by the majority even though there are not only health concerns for the drinker but for those around them that have been negatively impacted by impaired individuals. I think we can agree.

 

[gtyellowjacket]

I understand your point and agree with cigs being an issue for the smoker and second handers. Cigs are now justly frowned upon by society but amazingly there is very little social shaming when it comes to alcohol. Contrary wise it appears to be celebrated by the majority even though there are not only health concerns for the drinker but for those around them that have been negatively impacted by impaired individuals. I think we can agree.

The celebration part is kind of surprising. I could see that changing And moving towards education to reduce alcohol consumption. It worked well for tobacco which had plenty of ads celebrating cigarette smoking and other tobacco uses.

Much of the pre-prohibition temperance movement was really centered on those externalities: men getting drunk and beating up their wives, men drinking up all their paycheck and letting their kids starve, etc.

The smoking reduction campaigns really focused more on the health of the user and a little bit on the secondhand smoke issue or the cost of smoking.

If we do move to an environment where we're educating the consumers on the negatives of alcohol versus celebrating alcohol consumption, I think it would be more successful to focus on the health of the user than the negative externalities.

 

[Icky Mettle]

I understand your point and agree with cigs being an issue for the smoker and second handers. Cigs are now justly frowned upon by society but amazingly there is very little social shaming when it comes to alcohol. Contrary wise it appears to be celebrated by the majority even though there are not only health concerns for the drinker but for those around them that have been negatively impacted by impaired individuals. I think we can agree.

I think one difference is if you simply smoke a cigarette around someone, that person is smelling and inhaling the smoke. It’s impacting them in that moment. If you have a drink around someone, they’re not also consuming it and not bothered by it.

Yesterday evening, I had a beer while watching a a football game. No one other than me was impacted by it. I later had a glass of wine with my dinner. No one other than me was impacted by it. Had I smoked cigarettes instead (or in addition), the people around me would have been impacted by it. They would have smelled it and would have inhaled the smoke.

 

[lawtig02]

I think one difference is if you simply smoke a cigarette around someone, that person is smelling and inhaling the smoke. It’s impacting them in that moment. If you have a drink around someone, they’re not also consuming it and not bothered by it.

Yesterday evening, I had a beer while watching a a football game. No one other than me was impacted by it. I later had a glass of wine with my dinner. No one other than me was impacted by it. Had I smoked cigarettes instead (or in addition), the people around me would have been impacted by it. They would have smelled it and would have inhaled the smoke.

I agree with you as far as your example is concerned. That said, if someone smokes a few cigarettes at the bar while watching a game and then drives home, nobody else is at any heightened risk. But if someone drinks a few beers at the bar and then drives home, everyone on the road is at heightened risk.

In other words, the risks are not the same, but I think it's hard to say the secondary risk of smoking is ALWAYS higher than the secondary risk of drinking.

 

[4thgenheel]

i don't really drink a lot anyway but i started dry "January" on 12/23. it is going swimmingly thus far. feeling top notch. highly recommend.

 

[tar pal]

i don't really drink a lot anyway but i started dry "January" on 12/23. it is going swimmingly thus far. feeling top notch. highly recommend.

Congratulation, I wish the best. I have a close friend who quit early last year. He loves it but says it is still a challenge.