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Tariffs Catch-All

  • Thread starter Thread starter BubbaOtis
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apparently I'm wrong about Vietnam/US bilateral trade agreement. There is one. It was signed in 2001 but that was before Vietnam's accession to the WTO. So I'm not sure it's in effect any longer. WTO rules generally prohibit bilateral trade agreements as they violate MFN status, a core WTO principle (that Trump has destroyed for the US at least). I mean, who knows really. We used to have international trade law. Not so much any more.
 
The average salary in Vietnam is 17.3 million Vietnamese Dong (VND) per month or 697 USD/month.

What the hell are they going to be buying from the US?

I've seen that line of reasoning, and I'm not sure I agree with it.
US has a trade surplus with many developing countries (or much smaller deficit). Peru and Guatemala have a similar GDP per capita as Vietnam and have a surplus with the US. There are many in that same range of GDP per capita that run very small deficits. Vietnam has the third highest trade imbalance with the US. Part of it is just a geographic reality...their imports are dominated by China, South Korea and Japan but their imports from the US are pretty darn low.
 
I've seen that line of reasoning, and I'm not sure I agree with it.
US has a trade surplus with many developing countries (or much smaller deficit). Peru and Guatemala have a similar GDP per capita as Vietnam and have a surplus with the US. There are many in that same range of GDP per capita that run very small deficits. Vietnam has the third highest trade imbalance with the US. Part of it is just a geographic reality...their imports are dominated by China, South Korea and Japan but their imports from the US are pretty darn low.
I cannot speak to Peru, but Guatemala is a poor example because of all the remittances -- 20% of the GDP!

Remittances are measured on the current account, but they are more like a capital flow in function. If we count them as capital flows, then Guatemala would have a very substantial capital flow deficit and thus it would have a large current account surplus, just like Vietnam.

But unlike most capital flows, the remittances don't really finance capital projects, and thus they give Guatemala a surplus of dollars with no real outlet. So what happens is that Guatemala buys most of its oil from the U.S., and a lot of corn too. Those count as US exports but they aren't really specific to Guatemala. It's a world market and it's sort of random how the oil money flows, even without the remittance factor.

In general, the US has small trade surpluses with a lot of underdeveloped countries across the world, but remittances complicate the story a lot because they uncomfortably fit into the traditional current/capital accounting. I bet if remittances were zeroed out, the US would run small trade deficits. I have no idea about remittances from the US to Vietnam.
 
"Vietnam will pay a 20% tariff on any and all goods sent into our Territory..."

Does this dolt actually believe the government of the shipper pays the tariff, or is he just repeatedly lying so the stupid fools who support him will not understand that the importer (and US consumer) pay these tariffs? Is he actually this stupid or does he just think we are?
 
Bessent knows beyond any shadow of a doubt that tariffs are inflationary. I'll never understand why so many smart people sell their souls to find favor with Trump, but it's endlessly nauseating.
Not beyond a shadow of a doubt. I had insomnia last night and was specifically thinking about this issue for a while. There is a paper out there by Miran, put out last fall, that argues tariffs aren't inflationary. I don't know what to say about the paper. Miran is, or was, a serious person. And if you don't read the paper too carefully, it could be convincing.

But I dug into it and there's a fundamental contradiction: it relies on US dollar being both stronger and weaker. That is, it posits an increase in the dollar, which is why it wouldn't be inflationary; but then it envisions all these special trade deals by which foreign governments stop buying US debt, so the dollar falls for export purposes. He puts these effects in a time series: first dollar appreciation; second, Mar-A-Lago accords; then paradise. I don't know. I'm reluctant to say something too harsh before I can make sense of what he's saying -- I'm not sufficiently expert in this field where I feel 100% confident when seeing what appears to be a glaring contradiction.

So it's possible that Bessent quaffed this magic elixer and now believes what Miran was saying. It's worth noting that Bessent has been a currency trader, so perhaps he's inclined to believe that currency adjustments can have huge, magical macro effects. It's also possible he's bullshitting.

In any event, the sharp decline in the dollar undermines the thesis. Note: Krugman also highlights this contradiction. I read Krugman after thinking it through, so these are two independent data points: Krugman finding a contradiction, and me with the same one. How much you think "Krugman + super" improves on "Krugman" is perhaps subject to interpretation. Personally I don't think I'm nothing. I'm not Krugman, duh, but as long as my analysis has positive value then I think it makes at least a little bit of difference that he and I came to the same conclusions.

I've also been working with ChatGPT on this. My instructions are Make Miran Make Sense (basically), and it's been doing a good job of laying out the theory. But the contradictions become apparent with some prodding.
 
Not beyond a shadow of a doubt. I had insomnia last night and was specifically thinking about this issue for a while. There is a paper out there by Miran, put out last fall, that argues tariffs aren't inflationary. I don't know what to say about the paper. Miran is, or was, a serious person. And if you don't read the paper too carefully, it could be convincing.

But I dug into it and there's a fundamental contradiction: it relies on US dollar being both stronger and weaker. That is, it posits an increase in the dollar, which is why it wouldn't be inflationary; but then it envisions all these special trade deals by which foreign governments stop buying US debt, so the dollar falls for export purposes. He puts these effects in a time series: first dollar appreciation; second, Mar-A-Lago accords; then paradise. I don't know. I'm reluctant to say something too harsh before I can make sense of what he's saying -- I'm not sufficiently expert in this field where I feel 100% confident when seeing what appears to be a glaring contradiction.

So it's possible that Bessent quaffed this magic elixer and now believes what Miran was saying. It's worth noting that Bessent has been a currency trader, so perhaps he's inclined to believe that currency adjustments can have huge, magical macro effects. It's also possible he's bullshitting.

In any event, the sharp decline in the dollar undermines the thesis. Note: Krugman also highlights this contradiction. I read Krugman after thinking it through, so these are two independent data points: Krugman finding a contradiction, and me with the same one. How much you think "Krugman + super" improves on "Krugman" is perhaps subject to interpretation. Personally I don't think I'm nothing. I'm not Krugman, duh, but as long as my analysis has positive value then I think it makes at least a little bit of difference that he and I came to the same conclusions.

I've also been working with ChatGPT on this. My instructions are Make Miran Make Sense (basically), and it's been doing a good job of laying out the theory. But the contradictions become apparent with some prodding.
I appreciate this response, and I'll try to find that paper and read it this weekend. I don't understand intuitively how tariffs could not be inflationary, but I'm not anything resembling an economist and I'm happy to be educated about it.
 
I appreciate this response, and I'll try to find that paper and read it this weekend. I don't understand intuitively how tariffs could not be inflationary, but I'm not anything resembling an economist and I'm happy to be educated about it.
1. I would not recommend reading that paper. I did so you wouldn't have to. Or get someone to summarize it. It is not well written; it is disorganized; and it goes on Trump-fluffing derailments from time to time.

2. Remember that, at bottom, inflation is a reduction in the purchasing power of a dollar. Which is to say that, if all else remains equal, it could be expressed in different ways. One is through higher prices. But it could also come from the same number of bucks but less bang. For instance, suppose Trump put in universal 1000% tariffs. All foreign trade would stop. It wouldn't necessarily be inflationary in the US, but it would reduce our purchasing power because we have a much more limited set of choices. One way or another we would lose wealth.

3. There is an edge case where we might see something different. Let's say that all trade is like Bosch dishwashers. Now, Bosch is a premium brand in a field that isn't particularly competitive. It might be possible that, in a specialized sub-market, Bosch has tremendous market power. 20 years ago, you wouldn't think of building a high rise apartment building in New York without Bosch appliances where possible. No idea if that's true today, but this is just an illustration.

So in other words, Bosch has pricing power due to a semi-monopolistic position in a niche market. If it does, that means last year it was charging a price higher than in a competitive market -- and also that its price strategy is to maximize revenues at a low enough price so as to not encourage entry. So it has slack. Tariffs come in, and Bosch wants to preserve its market so it lowers prices -- which is can do, because it was charging elevated prices in the first place due to market power.

Thus, if all imports were like Bosch appliances, then tariffs could be non-inflationary, basically forcing niche-dominant foreign producers to eat lower price markups.

4. So are foreign goods like Bosch appliances? You would not think so for Chinese products that get sold at Wal-Mart. If nothing else, there would be competition between Chinese producers that will have already forced the price down. BUT we also get stories about how US firms can't get parts except from China -- e.g. windmills, rare earths, chip fabrication, etc. So presumably some Chinese firms had niche-market dominance. What % of Far East trade is like that? I would think very little, but who knows.

It's definitely not the case for places like Vietnam or Bangladesh. Nor, I would imagine, for Canada and Mexico.

5. If the economy is slowing -- as it sure seems to be, even per the weird jobs report that looks more like statistical artefacts than anything real -- then you wouldn't expect to see inflation. You'd expect disinflation. So if there are tariffs slowing the economy, they would cause disinflation; but they aren't, because they are also causing inflation.

Again, inflation is the result of a decline in welfare. If that decline is realized through some other channel -- i.e. a smaller economy -- then the inflation isn't necessary. It just means we get a recession instead of stagflation.
 
I appreciate this response, and I'll try to find that paper and read it this weekend. I don't understand intuitively how tariffs could not be inflationary, but I'm not anything resembling an economist and I'm happy to be educated about it.
I should add that the Miran model, if it works, predicts higher interest rates (it doesn't say that, of course). Which is what we're seeing.

No free lunch. Gotta pay for them somehow. Maybe it's through higher interest rates (which presumably would cause a lower GDP, which negates inflation in the short term).
 
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