Tariffs Catch-All

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CFordUNC said:
None of that has anything to do with why you apparently do not understand very simple economic concepts, such as the notion that tariffs are a tax on the American consumer. I have quite literally never seen anyone make that argument, even conservatives who are in favor of the tariffs don’t make such an asinine argument; they simply say that the increased costs are a price worth paying. If you are so excited about paying higher taxes, we might as well start calling you a Marxist liberal!
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I've repeatedly said that tariffs (in general) are a tax on consumers. I'm not a fan of tariffs but Trump has used them as leverage in negotiations so I applaud him for that.

If you don't believe me what about Jamie Diamond who has expressed praise for Trump's tariffs, acknowledging that the tariffs have been "moderately and thoughtfully implemented," which he believes may help some companies export and encourage manufacturing back to the US. While the tariffs may lead to inflationary outcomes, they are also seen as beneficial for the economy in the short term. Diamond emphasizes the importance of collaboration between government, business, and civic society to navigate economic challenges effectively. "So far so good."

That's a bit more nuanced than TRUMP TARIFFS BAD!!!
 
Ramrouser said:
I've repeatedly said that tariffs (in general) are a tax on consumers. I'm not a fan of tariffs but Trump has used them as leverage in negotiations so I applaud him for that.

If you don't believe me what about Jamie Diamond who has expressed praise for Trump's tariffs, acknowledging that the tariffs have been "moderately and thoughtfully implemented," which he believes may help some companies export and encourage manufacturing back to the US. While the tariffs may lead to inflationary outcomes, they are also seen as beneficial for the economy in the short term. Diamond emphasizes the importance of collaboration between government, business, and civic society to navigate economic challenges effectively. "So far so good."

That's a bit more nuanced than TRUMP TARIFFS BAD!!!
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But why is it applause-worthy to use a negotiating tactic that (a) amounts to a consumption tax (as you acknowledge), (b) spurs inflation (which you also acknowledge, and (c) puts American manufacturers like Ford at a disadvantage compared with foreign competitors?

I'm all about using smart leverage to negotiate with foreign countries on whatever the issue, including trade. But can you acknowledge that tariffs are one of the least effective, most counterproductive tools imaginable for these types of negotiations?
 
What are your thoughts on TACO Trump going forward?

I think there is a chance that the chicken talk will influence Trump's thinking. If there is one person who would put his ego ahead of the well being of the country it is Trump. In fact, I think these tariffs may be an effort to convince people he isn't a chicken.

We know Biff's character was modeled after Trump but maybe Trump has that one trait of not liking to be called a chicken from Marty.
 
Moderate tariffs
lawtig02 said:
But why is it applause-worthy to use a negotiating tactic that (a) amounts to a consumption tax (as you acknowledge), (b) spurs inflation (which you also acknowledge, and (c) puts American manufacturers like Ford at a disadvantage compared with foreign competitors?

I'm all about using smart leverage to negotiate with foreign countries on whatever the issue, including trade. But can you acknowledge that tariffs are one of the least effective, most counterproductive tools imaginable for these types of negotiations?
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These negotiations/deals are opening markets, like the EU, to US manufacturers and spurring investments in the US. Conversely, they are brining in revenue (20M in June, 29M in July) while inflation remains relatively under control (2.7%). I agree the large tariffs, like on Canada, are terrible. Hopefully, we'll get a deal with them soon.
 
Ramrouser said:
I've repeatedly said that tariffs (in general) are a tax on consumers. I'm not a fan of tariffs but Trump has used them as leverage in negotiations so I applaud him for that.

If you don't believe me what about Jamie Diamond who has expressed praise for Trump's tariffs, acknowledging that the tariffs have been "moderately and thoughtfully implemented," which he believes may help some companies export and encourage manufacturing back to the US. While the tariffs may lead to inflationary outcomes, they are also seen as beneficial for the economy in the short term. Diamond emphasizes the importance of collaboration between government, business, and civic society to navigate economic challenges effectively. "So far so good."

That's a bit more nuanced than TRUMP TARIFFS BAD!!!
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Yeah, of course Jamie Dimon thinks that the tariffs are fine and dandy. He is always begging to curry favor with the Trump administration, and on top of that he is a billionaire completely unaffected by rampant increases in prices on every day goods and items like the rest of the 99.9% of us are.

You might be able to get me to agree that extremely strategic, extremely pinpointed, extremely thoughtful, extremely targeted tariffs in moderation are not necessarily bad economic policy. But that is literally not at all what the Trump administration tariff policy is. It is scattershot, completely unstrategic, intended to be inflammatory and combative, has no thoughtfulness behind it, and is totally incoherent. THAT is indeed garbage economic policy, considering it does the exact opposite of what Trump campaign on, which was to lower inflation and lower prices.

Like I said yesterday, who knew that you were such an advocate for higher taxes, comrade!?
 
Ramrouser said:
Moderate tariffs

These negotiations/deals are opening markets, like the EU, to US manufacturers and spurring investments in the US. Conversely, they are brining in revenue (20M in June, 29M in July) while inflation remains relatively under control (2.7%). I agree the large tariffs, like on Canada, are terrible. Hopefully, we'll get a deal with them soon.
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What's the reasoning that the putative EU deal opens the EU market to US manufacturers? The EU already had almost no tariffs on American products. I don't see how keeping the status quo on that will change anything. Especially if the 15% tariffs on EU goods causes them to try to expand into the Chinese market instead.

As for the revenue, yes, that's the consumption tax part of it. Like a VAT, higher tariffs will raise some revenue for the federal government. But it's ultimately American consumers who bear the cost of that additional revenue. It's certainly more regressive, which may be what the GOP is looking for, but there's no doubt it's a substantial tax increase, whether it's called that or not.
 
Ramrouser said:
point made as I typed an extra "d." Glad that made you feel better.
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It wasn't only a d. Misspellings of famous and easy-to-spell names isn't in the same league as, say, not knowing how timeouts work (callatoroy) but it does undermine a reader's confidence in your posts.

It's like if someone is out talking smack on the internet about what a shitty coach Ron William was. That person probably is not well-informed.

It would be a different story if you didn't get the spelling of, say, Mike Brzezinski
 
CFordUNC said:
You might be able to get me to agree that extremely strategic, extremely pinpointed, extremely thoughtful, extremely targeted tariffs in moderation are not necessarily bad economic policy.
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Generally speaking, there are three accepted justifications for tariffs:

1. Infant industry protection. This doesn't apply to the U.S. It's more of a developing world type of thing. India has auto tariffs because it was trying to grow an Indian auto industry, which it never would if GM and Ford could sell their vehicles at cost. The problem with this is that it doesn't always work. When was the last time you saw a Maruti or a Tata? Those might have pretty good market share in India (I stopped following a while back), but they are not to my knowledge well regarded cars. Indonesia also tried a national champion approach with tariffs and it completely failed. On the other side of the ledger, protectionism worked to build Airbus.

2. Anti-dumping duties. Basically, if foreign firms are for whatever reason dumping their product into the US below cost -- either because they have overcapacity and/or government subsidies -- it's accepted that tariffs can be used to level the playing field. Nobody wants to be a dumping ground for other countries. Obviously that's not what is happening here.

3. Non-financial policy goals. Here you could put national security considerations. You can also put environmental adjustments. For instance, there used to be talk about the US establishing a relatively robust greenhouse gas emissions reduction program. One concern was that it would make the US less competitive with goods coming from India or China, which back then were not invested in reducing greenhouse gases. It's considered acceptable to put on a tariff to counteract this effect. Note, however, that this is a non-financial justification and thus the tariff will have the effect of causing some financial dislocations. It's an expressly contractionist policy, i.e., "it's expensive to reduce carbon, but it has to be done and we can't live high on the hog of the Gaia carbon absorption capability any longer.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
What are your thoughts on TACO Trump going forward?

I think there is a chance that the chicken talk will influence Trump's thinking. If there is one person who would put his ego ahead of the well being of the country it is Trump. In fact, I think these tariffs may be an effort to convince people he isn't a chicken.

We know Biff's character was modeled after Trump but maybe Trump has that one trait of not liking to be called a chicken from Marty.
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He has given himself until August 7 to chicken out this time.
 
The logic that tariffs are leverage for negotiations is pretty flawed. No one has to negotiate anything. The United States simply applies the tariff (tax) and Americans pay it. The other country can choose to not do anything.

Now ask the question: How many respectable tariff deals has Trump got? I would argue zero. He claims four or so (remember 90 in 90 days?). But those deals surely are not respectable successes. Kinda like the China deal he had in his first term . It was a nothing burger.

But if anyone has evidence of a respectable Trump tariff deal, then please provide.
 
nycfan said:

In a Country Trump Says Nobody’s Heard Of, Tariffs Bring Chaos​

Lesotho has declared a state of disaster due to mass layoffs following the threat of 50% tariffs​


🎁 —> https://www.wsj.com/world/africa/le...6?st=VjrzyR&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

“President Trump promised Africa that trade would replace aid when he dismantled America’s foreign-assistance programs soon after taking office this year. But here in one of the world’s poorest countries, his administration is slashing both.

Trump, who publicly disparaged Lesotho as a place “nobody has ever heard of,” threatened the tiny southern African country with 50% tariffs, among the highest ratesproposed for any single nation or territory. The Trump administration ultimately set a 15% tariff on Lesotho late Thursday, but much damage has already occurred to the country’s textile industry. It is uncertain how many buyers will return, leaving thousands of workers in limbo.

Lesotho’s garment exporters were already closing up shop in the face of dwindling orders, while other countries with more diplomatic resources rushed to secure new trade deals with the White House….”
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MAGA thinks the economy is a zero-sum game so they think this is good.
 
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