The Charlie Kirk Thread

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Calheel said:
The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.
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1. The argument for it being framed for political reasons is very weak given the evidence they have.
2. You haven't said what the consequences would be for the prosecutor. Worrying about institutional consequences down the road is not the MAGA way. So I'd want to know if the prosecutor would face any personal consequences. Without that, I'd be reluctant to say zero chance.
3. Who is the trial judge? Does that person have any integrity? My view of judges in places like St. George Utah is dim. I've read too many cases (doing research for my own family law case) showing small-town judges behaving in shockingly unethical fashion. Or if not unethical, shockingly credulous and ignorant.

So I wouldn't count on the trial judge being angry as a deterrent, unless we know more about the judge.

4. As I said before, if this was the FBI document, I would take an even money bet in a heartbeat. That this is a different office would substantially reduce the likelihood, based on the information we currently have available. But unless there is personal consequence to the prosecutors or a realistic chance that the case would be dismissed, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.

5 Again, this isn't just a matter of questionable falseness. Those texts are OBVIOUSLY faked, like 90%+ chance. The only question is whether the kids faked them in order to absolve one of them, as per theories floating around, or law enforcement faked them. They are too formal and explanatory even for them to be MY texts, and I'm a guy who separates texts into paragraphs.
 
ZenMode said:
Pro LGBTQ and anti the traditional religious/ conservative, and especially Kirk's, views on LGBTQ to the point that he murdered one of the spokespersons for anti-LBGTQ conservatives.
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I don’t think I’m following what you’re saying here. Are you saying that being gay or bisexual is a political position, or something that is strictly confined to Democrats and liberals?
 
superrific said:
1. The argument for it being framed for political reasons is very weak given the evidence they have.
2. You haven't said what the consequences would be for the prosecutor. Worrying about institutional consequences down the road is not the MAGA way. So I'd want to know if the prosecutor would face any personal consequences. Without that, I'd be reluctant to say zero chance.
3. Who is the trial judge? Does that person have any integrity? My view of judges in places like St. George Utah is dim. I've read too many cases (doing research for my own family law case) showing small-town judges behaving in shockingly unethical fashion. Or if not unethical, shockingly credulous and ignorant.

So I wouldn't count on the trial judge being angry as a deterrent, unless we know more about the judge.

4. As I said before, if this was the FBI document, I would take an even money bet in a heartbeat. That this is a different office would substantially reduce the likelihood, based on the information we currently have available. But unless there is personal consequence to the prosecutors or a realistic chance that the case would be dismissed, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.

5 Again, this isn't just a matter of questionable falseness. Those texts are OBVIOUSLY faked, like 90%+ chance. The only question is whether the kids faked them in order to absolve one of them, as per theories floating around, or law enforcement faked them. They are too formal and explanatory even for them to be MY texts, and I'm a guy who separates texts into paragraphs.
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What evidence do they have?

If you believe the text is fake what other evidence do you believe is unquestionably real?
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
I am not going to say I think it is fake because I require some extraordinary evidence to make extraordinary claims.

This kid is from Utah. If you've ever been around Mormons they're kind of a strangely polite bunch. No better example of this than the governor's statements. He seemed to be the anti-Trump when it comes to the language he chose - though there was some concerning things in his message.

Maybe the language in the texts were because of this culture.

That said, I am not going to outright dismiss the possibility, not with Patel in charge.
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You can be extremely polite and formal in speech but still use typical shorthand. I've never seen a kid type out "you" in a text. And these kids are so conversant in online culture that it stretches credibility that they would text like this.

It's a fake. Either the kids faked it, or the cops faked it, but it's going to be hard to convince me that this is just how they talk. And I don't typically rush to judgment on matters of language, since I realize that my manner of speaking is unusual.
 
ChapelHillSooner said:
That said, I am not going to outright dismiss the possibility, not with Patel in charge.
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This is the consequence of the Trump justice department generally, and Patel specifically, repeatedly undercutting their own credibility by displaying their partisanship and lying in court and to the public. It is perfectly reasonable to now treat all of their statements with a heightened level of suspicion.
 
Calheel said:
What evidence do they have?

If you believe the text is fake what other evidence do you believe is unquestionably real?
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I don't think they are looking to frame this kid. I think they are looking to project a narrative because they jumped on the trans angle and now they are trying to substantiate that. You know well how MAGA world operates -- someone at the top (usually Trump but not always) says something stupid and obviously false, and they spend the next week trying to pretend that the nonsense is true. How many Republicans said that the eating the pets story was false?

So I see no reason to think they faked any of the physical evidence.

It's also possible -- perhaps likely -- that the shooter and the roommate did text in an incriminating way. That's possible even if these purported texts aren't real.

You said earlier that you wouldn't take an even money bet. At this point, neither would I. But what odds would you need? 10:1? 100:1? If I was a betting man, which I am not, I think I would strongly consider taking a 10:1 bet and probably would.
 
ZenMode said:
Given that he has never voted, or even registered to vote, it doesn't sound like he was very political, but not being political isn't the same as saying his beliefs don't align with Liberals/Democrats.
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once again, you have absolutely no evidence that his beliefs align with liberals/democrats or more importantly that any of those beliefs were the genesis of him committing this outrageous crime.
 
Calheel said:
The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.
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they are political day traders
 
4thgenheel said:
once again, you have absolutely no evidence that his beliefs align with liberals/democrats or more importantly that any of those beliefs were the genesis of him committing this outrageous crime.
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The evidence, IMO, is that he's actively pro-LGBTQ, generally a liberal view, and literally murdering anti-LGBTQ conservatives.
 
Calheel said:
The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.
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I don’t think the defense has that argument, and I don’t think they’re going to raise a defense. I predict he pleads guilty and gets a life sentence. Now if the prosecution seeks the death penalty and refuses to take it off the table, that’s a different story. His lawyers will have to come up with some defense.
 
Calheel said:
What evidence do they have?

If you believe the text is fake what other evidence do you believe is unquestionably real?
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I believe he confessed to his parents that he committed the murder, the gun that was used in the offense belonged to either him or his family, and there were photographs of him in the vicinity of where the shooting took place. That’s all pretty strong evidence when taken together.
 
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ZenMode said:
The evidence, IMO, is that he's actively pro-LGBTQ, generally a liberal view, and literally murdering anti-LGBTQ conservatives.
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what is the evidence that he's "actively pro-LGBTQ?"

plenty of people who are members of the lgbtq community are not liberal. it's obviously a bit insane but a lot of them exist.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I believe he confessed to his parents that he committed the murder, the gun that was used in the offense either belonged to him or his family, and there were photographs of him in the vicinity of where the shooting took place. That’s all pretty strong evidence when taken together.
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There’s also Robinson’s confession in his Discord chat group. Plus, Robinson turned himself in to law enforcement.

Andrew Weismann agreed with you that everything for the defense will be in attempt to avoid the death penalty
 
4thgenheel said:
what is the evidence that he's "actively pro-LGBTQ?"

plenty of people who are members of the lgbtq community are not liberal. it's obviously a bit insane but a lot of them exist.
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One of the biggest Republican activists that I'm personally familiar with is a married gay man.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I believe he confessed to his parents that he committed the murder, the gun that was used in the offense belonged to either him or his family, and there were photographs of him in the vicinity of where the shooting took place. That’s all pretty strong evidence when taken together.
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I think Calheel's point is that we don't know that; it's also in the charging document so if one part is faked all could be.

But the photographs/video weren't faked. And the physical evidence -- if it's as described -- is strong.
 
Icky Mettle said:
I don’t think the defense has that argument, and I don’t think they’re going to raise a defense. I predict he pleads guilty and gets a life sentence. Now if the prosecution seeks the death penalty and refuses to take it off the table, that’s a different story. His lawyers will have to come up with some defense.
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The latter. The prosecution is basically under a presidential order to push for the death penalty. They will not likely accept a plea. And that is one of the reasons I don’t believe they would knowingly allege a false text in the charging document.
 
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