The Charlie Kirk Thread

[rodoheel]

Utah's governor, Republican Spencer Cox, believes “cancer” isn’t a strong enough word to describe social media. “The most powerful companies in the history of the world have figured out how to hack our brains, get us addicted to outrage ... and get us to hate each other,” Cox said Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

Note: Cox belongs to a political party whose consistent political objective has been to cater to the people who run these "most powerful companies in the history of the world" by removing and opposing regulatory protections that would protect Americans from the predations of these companies, providing tax incentives and other benefits to help them force out smaller competition, and reducing the taxes for the obscenely wealthy people who run them. If the Republican Party wasn't constantly sacrificing our lives and minds at the altar of higher profits for the richest people in history, we might not be in such a dire situation.

 

[ChileG]

Given that he has never voted, or even registered to vote, it doesn't sound like he was very political, but not being political isn't the same as saying his beliefs don't align with Liberals/Democrats.

What beliefs, though?

 

[Ramrouser]

Patel mentioned it in one of his press conferences.

 

[superrific]

Apparently, one of them does.

I mean, the text chain could be completely made up and alleged in a charging document filed in court.

What are the consequences if they did? In the charging documents I've seen -- not many! -- there is an affidavit from someone, often a police officer or field agent, setting forth the facts under oath. If that person made things up, they would be subject to perjury.

But here? Nobody submitted this under oath. We know that the DOJ now routinely lies to courts. So if this were a DOJ document, I'd say better than even money it was faked. But it's the state of Utah, which in theory could be different.

 

[superrific]

It would also significantly imperil a high-profile prosecution.

How? What would be the consequences? The information in that document isn't being introduced in court. It's not faking evidence. It isn't poisoning the jury pool, at least compared to all the other stuff. I genuinely don't know the answer.

 

[1moretimeagain]

Patel mentioned it in one of his press conferences.

Let me know if you come across it again. I’ve seen Kash say they’re investigating scores of people who were in contact with Robinson, but I missed him saying they discussed the murder in advance of it happening.

 

[WaynetheDrain]

Given that he has never voted, or even registered to vote, it doesn't sound like he was very political, but not being political isn't the same as saying his beliefs don't align with Liberals/Democrats.

Disagreeing with the viewpoints of an extreme right-wing podcaster doesn’t automatically mean his beliefs align with Democrats and liberals.

Maybe he just found Charlie Kirk abhorrent? That doesn’t require membership to the Democratic Party. It just requires membership to the human race.

 

[superrific]

No chance the FBI made this up for this slam dunk case.

It is possible that it was scripted between the two in order to protect the boyfriend from his having prior knowledge of the assassination. They wrote the texts in a highly stylized, formal manner because they knew the cops would eat it up since it was in their "language."

This will not help the 20 or so people who allegedly were in chat groups discussing the event days before the 10th.

1. No chance? That's what you said about the DOJ straight up lying to courts, and here we are.
2. It's more likely they made it up for a slam dunk case. Kash has made clear that the most important thing to him, by far, is public opinion and his ideological narrative.
3. The only thing supporting the integrity of the document is that it's not an FBI production. We know the Trump FBI is corrupt through-and-through. We don't know about the Utah prosecutors.
4. Again, how would this fabrication be discovered? What would be the consequences? Twiggs isn't going to talk to the media, and he has no standing to challenge the charging document of another person. What is Robinson going to do? Demand that the evidence of those texts be provided? It's a charging document. He can't challenge their admissibility or anything like that.
5. No cop worth his badge would eat it up because it's in their language. Maybe the two kids wouldn't realize that? But most people are smart enough to know that faking has to look somewhat realistic. Otherwise there is no point faking it.
6. Given that Kash has lied about several aspects of this case and the evidence, and the fact that they are claiming that the kid looked under his keyboard to find a photograph of a note, as opposed to the note itself (in what universe does that make sense?), saying zero chance seems extremely confident.

 

[Calheel]

How? What would be the consequences? The information in that document isn't being introduced in court. It's not faking evidence. It isn't poisoning the jury pool, at least compared to all the other stuff. I genuinely don't know the answer.

The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

No. Been paying attention. I made a Facebook post in an attempt to deescalate and for next 24 hours a gang was calling me liberal. Remember I was an editor for 24 years so not like there is no data out there. There is a blooming crisis in our immediate family that I will be in middle of. I have seen people I know who are friends calling each other the worst if names. And it all seems to pivot on whether a maga or a liberal did the deed. I have said from day 1 I don't care and it does not matter.

I think most of us wouldn't care except that this administration and others are trying so hard to put blame on the entirety of the left for this and use this to exert power over the left. They've talked about investigating the left. They're assaulting free speech. (While a company has every right to fire an employee who makes statements that are problematic for the company, the government has no right to exert its power to coerce them to do so.) The administration is trying to place the blame on the left as a whole and actually saying things that could instigate violence against the left.

It is my opinion that they want to use this to remove civil rights from the left. You may disagree but that is my opinion.

You have to consider that context when wondering why people are pointing the fingers. There is always some of that but the stakes are far higher than normal now.

 

[rodoheel]

The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.

Yeah it will probably take them weeks to pick a jury.

 

[rodoheel]

It is my opinion that they want to use this to remove civil rights from the left. You may disagree but that is my opinion.

They (Trump, Stephen Miller, Pam Bondi, JD Vance, others) are openly saying they intend to do this. They may be full of shit, but they're not hiding it at all.

 

[ChapelHillSooner]

I want a show of hands..how many think the note is fake? Raise hand. Mine is down.

I am not going to say I think it is fake because I require some extraordinary evidence to make extraordinary claims.

This kid is from Utah. If you've ever been around Mormons they're kind of a strangely polite bunch. No better example of this than the governor's statements. He seemed to be the anti-Trump when it comes to the language he chose - though there was some concerning things in his message.

Maybe the language in the texts were because of this culture.

That said, I am not going to outright dismiss the possibility, not with Patel in charge.

 

[ZenMode]

What beliefs, though?

Pro LGBTQ and anti the traditional religious/ conservative, and especially Kirk's, views on LGBTQ to the point that he murdered one of the spokespersons for anti-LBGTQ conservatives.

 

[superrific]

The defense already has an argument that the defendant was framed for political reasons. If the prosecution intentionally lies in a charging document, it could bias the jury pool (even if the document never makes it into evidence) and it could also lead to consequences from the trial judge that impact the case.

Keep in mind that St George, Utah is a very small place and every potential juror is likely following this case with great attention.

1. The argument for it being framed for political reasons is very weak given the evidence they have.
2. You haven't said what the consequences would be for the prosecutor. Worrying about institutional consequences down the road is not the MAGA way. So I'd want to know if the prosecutor would face any personal consequences. Without that, I'd be reluctant to say zero chance.
3. Who is the trial judge? Does that person have any integrity? My view of judges in places like St. George Utah is dim. I've read too many cases (doing research for my own family law case) showing small-town judges behaving in shockingly unethical fashion. Or if not unethical, shockingly credulous and ignorant.

So I wouldn't count on the trial judge being angry as a deterrent, unless we know more about the judge.

4. As I said before, if this was the FBI document, I would take an even money bet in a heartbeat. That this is a different office would substantially reduce the likelihood, based on the information we currently have available. But unless there is personal consequence to the prosecutors or a realistic chance that the case would be dismissed, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.

5 Again, this isn't just a matter of questionable falseness. Those texts are OBVIOUSLY faked, like 90%+ chance. The only question is whether the kids faked them in order to absolve one of them, as per theories floating around, or law enforcement faked them. They are too formal and explanatory even for them to be MY texts, and I'm a guy who separates texts into paragraphs.

 

[Healing]

That said, I am not going to outright dismiss the possibility, not with Patel in charge.

This is the crux. I’d wager my money that the text is real, but I’m not supremely confident precisely because shameless lying is a prerequisite of maga.

 

[CFordUNC]

Pro LGBTQ and anti the traditional religious/ conservative, and especially Kirk's, views on LGBTQ to the point that he murdered one of the spokespersons for anti-LBGTQ conservatives.

I don’t think I’m following what you’re saying here. Are you saying that being gay or bisexual is a political position, or something that is strictly confined to Democrats and liberals?

 

[Calheel]

1. The argument for it being framed for political reasons is very weak given the evidence they have.
2. You haven't said what the consequences would be for the prosecutor. Worrying about institutional consequences down the road is not the MAGA way. So I'd want to know if the prosecutor would face any personal consequences. Without that, I'd be reluctant to say zero chance.
3. Who is the trial judge? Does that person have any integrity? My view of judges in places like St. George Utah is dim. I've read too many cases (doing research for my own family law case) showing small-town judges behaving in shockingly unethical fashion. Or if not unethical, shockingly credulous and ignorant.

So I wouldn't count on the trial judge being angry as a deterrent, unless we know more about the judge.

4. As I said before, if this was the FBI document, I would take an even money bet in a heartbeat. That this is a different office would substantially reduce the likelihood, based on the information we currently have available. But unless there is personal consequence to the prosecutors or a realistic chance that the case would be dismissed, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.

5 Again, this isn't just a matter of questionable falseness. Those texts are OBVIOUSLY faked, like 90%+ chance. The only question is whether the kids faked them in order to absolve one of them, as per theories floating around, or law enforcement faked them. They are too formal and explanatory even for them to be MY texts, and I'm a guy who separates texts into paragraphs.

What evidence do they have?

If you believe the text is fake what other evidence do you believe is unquestionably real?

 

[superrific]

I am not going to say I think it is fake because I require some extraordinary evidence to make extraordinary claims.

This kid is from Utah. If you've ever been around Mormons they're kind of a strangely polite bunch. No better example of this than the governor's statements. He seemed to be the anti-Trump when it comes to the language he chose - though there was some concerning things in his message.

Maybe the language in the texts were because of this culture.

That said, I am not going to outright dismiss the possibility, not with Patel in charge.

You can be extremely polite and formal in speech but still use typical shorthand. I've never seen a kid type out "you" in a text. And these kids are so conversant in online culture that it stretches credibility that they would text like this.

It's a fake. Either the kids faked it, or the cops faked it, but it's going to be hard to convince me that this is just how they talk. And I don't typically rush to judgment on matters of language, since I realize that my manner of speaking is unusual.

 

[CRHeel94]

That text exchange doesn't smell quite right.