The sad case of Imane Khelif

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grubar

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I know little about biology, But the good news is that I have some sense of what I do not know that other folks know.
One thing I do know is that whereas we tend to think of biological sex as a clear binary, in fact there are folks whose biological characteristics at birth do not quite fit that binary model.

Then there is Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif. Khelif was defined as a female at birth, I am not sure if her parents confronted any medical complexities at that point, but she has always been a girl - as defined by biology and gender. She is NOT a transsexual.
The other day she won a match quickly, in which she seemed to be quite strong, [Note: She is not a star in the sport and has lost many matches to women.]

After this match she has become the target of evil, ignorant, folks who think of themselves as conservatives. Her attackers include Trump, Vance and JK Rowling!

There IS some sort of added issue surrounding a murky governing body that did unclear tests and initially barred her.

But the larger truths seem to be:
(1) She is a woman
(2) Some portion of humans are born with unusual/atypical testonerome levels and/or physical traits

This is ANOTHER one of those topics where perhaps we should rely on the knowledge of scientists and experts. And we should not listen to folks who have no knowledge about the issues under discussion [like Trump and Vance] And we should not defer to folks with "opinions" and no knowledge
 
"This is ANOTHER one of those topics where perhaps we should rely on the knowledge of scientists and experts. And we should not listen to folks who have no knowledge about the issues under discussion [like Trump and Vance] And we should not defer to folks with "opinions" and no knowledge"

Exactly.

But you know that some see this as a chance to prove that they are right and trans women are taking over women's sport. Even though the numbers will never support this assertion.
 
yeah, one of my friends just sent me a screenshot of some ignorant a-holes melting down about this on FB.

just one more situation that illustrates that right wingers need to STFU about trans folks and basically anything pertaining to gender (and/or sexuality).

these things are complex and there are a wide variety of outcomes.

re: OP's #2, i'm guessing with the high T that maybe she's intersex.
 
Some may argue that her biological makeup gives her an advantage when it comes to playing sports against her peers (elevated testosterone levels compared to typical women) I say…yeah, that’s pretty much sports. I was never going to play professional basketball or football no matter what I did. Is that “fair?”
Are we going to ban the next Shaq?
 
ChileG said:
Some may argue that her biological makeup gives her an advantage when it comes to playing sports against her peers (elevated testosterone levels compared to typical women) I say…yeah, that’s pretty much sports. I was never going to play professional basketball or football no matter what I did. Is that “fair?”
Are we going to ban the next Shaq?
Click to expand...
yeah, elite level sports are full of genetic freaks. this is how you get to be elite. the olympics is ground zero for this stuff.

the broadness/wideness of the female swimmer's shoulders/backs and the length of their arms is insane. the sprinters legs? my god.

basically all of the swimmers and t&f athletes are freaks of nature (i mean this in the best way).
 
not to mention, she’s from Algeria, where I’m pretty sure LGBTQ stuff is illegal, anyway. But R’s never let facts get in the way of a juicy narrative.
 
grubar said:
I know little about biology, But the good news is that I have some sense of what I do not know that other folks know.
One thing I do know is that whereas we tend to think of biological sex as a clear binary, in fact there are folks whose biological characteristics at birth do not quite fit that binary model.

Then there is Algerian Olympic boxer Imane Khelif. Khelif was defined as a female at birth, I am not sure if her parents confronted any medical complexities at that point, but she has always been a girl - as defined by biology and gender. She is NOT a transsexual.
The other day she won a match quickly, in which she seemed to be quite strong, [Note: She is not a star in the sport and has lost many matches to women.]

After this match she has become the target of evil, ignorant, folks who think of themselves as conservatives. Her attackers include Trump, Vance and JK Rowling!

There IS some sort of added issue surrounding a murky governing body that did unclear tests and initially barred her.

But the larger truths seem to be:
(1) She is a woman
(2) Some portion of humans are born with unusual/atypical testonerome levels and/or physical traits

This is ANOTHER one of those topics where perhaps we should rely on the knowledge of scientists and experts. And we should not listen to folks who have no knowledge about the issues under discussion [like Trump and Vance] And we should not defer to folks with "opinions" and no knowledge
Click to expand...

One nit. She is definitely a star. She hasn't lost a match since 2022. I believe she is currently ranked second in her weight class according to one ranking organization. Most of those losses were when she was younger.
 
I am still wondering why sex assigned at birth is THE end-all, be-all...and anyone who declares their gender is different is horrible. But then in THIS case, she should not be competing in the women's event even though she was a female at birth. And she is being called a "grown man."
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I knew about Rowling. I was really surprised that Navratilova agreed with her.
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The TERFs have a very narrow definition of female. It is somewhat ironic that that they argue women need “female-only” spaces due to discrimination, and yet they freely are willing to define what qualifies as “female.”

In their world view, “female” is a chromosome-based concept, and anyone not fitting within their narrow XX definition of female is not entitled to join their club - even people assigned female at birth who are born with female genitals.

There is a real debate here, separate from the anti-woke argument. What genetic advantages are sufficiently inconsistent with the policy reason why we divide the genders in most sports. Obviously, being genetically gifted with strength or speed is not enough. Is a chromosome condition more analogous to genetic strength advantage or is it more analogous to being male, such that it violates the fairness of the sport? That is a real debate and reasonable people could take different positions for very sound reasons.

I am going to link a Rowling retweet. I am not endorsing it. I am especially not endorsing the tweet’s categorical definition of what is “male” and what is “female.” But there are valid points to consider here.


 
4thgenheel said:
yeah, elite level sports are full of genetic freaks. this is how you get to be elite. the olympics is ground zero for this stuff.

the broadness/wideness of the female swimmer's shoulders/backs and the length of their arms is insane. the sprinters legs? my god.

basically all of the swimmers and t&f athletes are freaks of nature (i mean this in the best way).
Click to expand...
Simone Biles, and the other elite gymnasts, are freaks of nature. They’re abnormally small AND powerful and fast. Some of the power and speed comes from training; the size is most likely genetic; limiting calories and training at ridiculous levels during early puberty might also play a factor.

I knew three elite level gymnasts really well from age 18-25; dated two; the third was the sister of one of the two I dated. Two went to international competitions.

All three were about 5’1” and 90-95 lbs. Then, one of them grew boobs…..5’1”, 97 lbs soaking wet with large breasts…..disproportionally large on her tiny body…..there went her gymnastics career. She was still one helluva athlete. She was fast as hell and running hurdles came naturally to her. She could leap out of the gym and shocked people playing volleyball.

Should women with gymnast bodies be forced to wear fake boobs to unbalance themselves? Even the score up with “normal” women?

What about Wemby or Britney Greiner? Should they have to play on their knees?

The two boxers are women.
 
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