The sad case of Imane Khelif

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ZenMode said:
I think that's going to be a tough case. Genetically speak, she does have XY chromosomes, right?
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“Khelif is a woman, who is not transgender, nor identifies as intersex, according to GLAAD and InterACT. Khelif reportedly has differences of sexual development, known as DSDs, the organizations said in a Fact Sheet released Friday. Having DSD is not the same as being transgender.”

“Differences in sex development is a set of rare conditions involving genes, hormones and reproductive organs that can cause the sexual development of a person to be different than others, according to the NHS. Sometimes, this can lead to a person having XY chromosomes but develop otherwise female.”

“The IBA, long mired with scandal and controversy, oversaw Olympic boxing before being stripped of its right before the Tokyo Games and is no longer recognized of the international federation of boxing.

In the face of backlash over Khelif's 2024 win, the IBA stood by its decision to disqualify the boxers over two "trustworthy" and "independent" tests, though they did not disclose what the tests were. The Washington Post reported IBA president claimed they were disqualified over finding XY chromosomes. Other accounts claim the IBF disqualification was the result of abnormal testosterone levels.”

The IBF’s unwillingness to be transparent in its reason for disqualification makes it highly suspect to me, as does its history of corruption.”
 
farce said:
The legislators of states concerned with where people pee and who participates in which sports disagree with you. Gender assigned at birth is their litmus test.
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I don't know the correct way to make it happen, but for the sake of safety and fairness, we will have to figure out a way to keep those with high testosterone levels from competing against those with low testosterone levels.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know the correct way to make it happen, but for the sake of safety and fairness we will have to figure out a way to keep those with high testosterone levels from competing against those with low testosterone levels.
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Should that apply to competitions between those who identify as men, too? Should a track athlete with a testosterone reading of 1500 ng/dL be able to compete against an athlete with 250 ng/dL?
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know the correct way to make it happen, but for the sake of safety and fairness we will have to figure out a way to keep those with high testosterone levels from competing against those with low testosterone levels.
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Testosterone is not the end all, be all hormone in this. Modifying testosterone levels does not necessarily solve the strength imbalance. Moreover, there are some medical risks to suppressing natural hormone levels — as the conservatives keep arguing that point on the puberty blocker debate.

Some sports do require DSD athletes to take hormone suppressors, and the level required to compete keeps changing. There is no scientific consensus as what is too “high” a testosterone level.

And then you have the issue of what genetic differences are fair and what are unfair. We don’t regulate height or speed or coordination - all of which varies genetically. The idea is that certain genetic advantages are inconsistent with the male/female sports divide and we want to regulate those.

It is a complicated issue and just adjusting testosterone is likely not the correct answer.
 
lawtig02 said:
Should that apply to competitions between those who identify as men, too? Should a track athlete with a testosterone reading of 1500 ng/dL be able to compete against an athlete with 250 ng/dL?
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I don't know if you enforce that rule. Very few biological females choose to compete In male sports particularly once you get into 8th grade or higher. Occasionally you will see a female kicker on a football team or a female wrestler, but it's fairly rare.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know if you enforce that rule. Very few biological females choose to compete In male sports particularly once you get into 8th grade or higher. Occasionally you will see a female kicker on a football team or a female wrestler, but it's fairly rare.
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Right. My question is different, though. If testosterone differentials are so impactful, why don’t we pay attention to them in sports contexts where gender variances are not an issue?
 
lawtig02 said:
Right. My question is different, though. If testosterone differentials are so impactful, why don’t we pay attention to them in sports contexts where gender variances are not an issue?
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What sports contexts are you referring to?
 
ZenMode said:
I don't know the correct way to make it happen, but for the sake of safety and fairness, we will have to figure out a way to keep those with high testosterone levels from competing against those with low testosterone levels.
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This sounds like a dangerous path fraught with subjectivity.
 
Calheel said:
Testosterone is not the end all, be all hormone in this. Modifying testosterone levels does not necessarily solve the strength imbalance. Moreover, there are some medical risks to suppressing natural hormone levels — as the conservatives keep arguing that point on the puberty blocker debate.

Some sports do require DSD athletes to take hormone suppressors, and the level required to compete keeps changing. There is no scientific consensus as what is too “high” a testosterone level.

And then you have the issue of what genetic differences are fair and what are unfair. We don’t regulate height or speed or coordination - all of which varies genetically. The idea is that certain genetic advantages are inconsistent with the male/female sports divide and we want to regulate those.

It is a complicated issue and just adjusting testosterone is likely not the correct answer.
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I agree that there is no easy answer, but testosterone is the hormone that creates the muscular advantage. Decreasing testosterone later in life doesn't undo other possible developmental advantages but, if we are going to allow biological males to compete against biological females, I think there has to be a hormonal component.
 
ZenMode said:
What sports contexts are you referring to?
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The one in my post above, for example. Two XYs who identify as men line up next to each other for the men’s 800. One has a T level of 1500. The other has a T level of 250. Should we allow that? Should we, in the interest of fair competition, be testing men to be sure they fall within some “normal” testosterone variance?
 
farce said:
This sounds like a dangerous path fraught with subjectivity.
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Every rule and requirement in sports has a component of subjectivity. Many of those rules and requirements are based around safety and fairness.
 
lawtig02 said:
The one in my post above, for example. Two XYs who identify as men line up next to each other for the men’s 800. One has a T level of 1500. The other has a T level of 250. Should we allow that? Should we, in the interest of fair competition, be testing men to be sure they fall within some “normal” testosterone variance?
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I honestly have no idea what the naturally occurring range is for testosterone. I know that athletes can be tested for unusually high levels of testosterone, implying that they are cheating. If two biological males happen to have different naturally occurring testosterone levels, I would see no reason for them to be disallowed from competing.

But, again, I don't know what the range is for naturally occurring testosterone levels. Given that this is all fairly uncharted territory, I'm sure there will be some growing pains, but I think We need to work to come up with a policy that keeps female sports safe and fair.
 
ZenMode said:
I honestly have no idea what the naturally occurring range is for testosterone. I know that athletes can be tested for unusually high levels of testosterone, implying that they are cheating. If two biological males happen to have different naturally occurring testosterone levels, I would see no reason for them to be disallowed from competing.

But, again, I don't know what the range is for naturally occurring testosterone levels. Given that this is all fairly uncharted territory, I'm sure there will be some growing pains, but I think We need to work to come up with a policy that keeps female sports safe and fair.
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Sorry sweatie, you’re too fast, you can compete against other cuter girls.
 
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