Thread for non-MAGA Christians

But at least for me, part of the decision is also a moral and ethical decision: (1) is it right for me to commit myself as a member of the church community when I don't really believe some of the fundamental tenets underlying the religion; and (2) is it right for me to raise my kids in a religion to say and believe things that I don't believe myself? Of course I myself was raised as a kid saying and believing those things, and I still think I turned out fine (and obviously got to a place where I could think critically about those issues myself).

What says the ZZLP about the situation?

For me, the answer is really clear: go ahead and go, and just keep your theological opinions to yourself (so you don't cause any problems for others).

The way I see it, religion is primarily about community, ritual and food (and secondarily music, dance, and art). "Belief" falls way down the list. Being in a healthy community is really what it's all about, and we should never sacrifice that for attachment to any particular belief (which we may be wrong about anyway).

That's my 2 cents.
 
Last edited:
I do think a healthy fear of neo-nazis, white supremacists, etc that comes from Charlottesville and their general emboldenedness driven by Trump and his cronies is different than fear-mongering that is rooted in isolation, ignorance, and selfish desire to take society backwards.

I'm just sort of sensitive to the fact that everyone says "Our fear is justified, theirs isn't"

My hero in all this is really John Lewis, who passionately stood up for what he believed in, and responded to the "isolation, ignorance, and selfish desire to take society backwards" with love. He did not judge his enemies for those things, he just saw in them a child of god who needed some guidance and wisdom. Or as the rabbi says, they are like "a candle whose light is about to be snuffed out"
 
I'm just sort of sensitive to the fact that everyone says "Our fear is justified, theirs isn't"

My hero in all this is really John Lewis, who passionately stood up for what he believed in, and responded to the "isolation, ignorance, and selfish desire to take society backwards" with love. He did not judge his enemies for those things, he just saw in them a child of god who needed some guidance and wisdom. Or as the rabbi says, they are like "a candle whose light is about to be snuffed out"
Yet, there is the Project 2025 playbook. Maybe in that case fear isn't really the right word versus mindful awareness. As Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time".
 
For me, the answer is really clear: go ahead and go, and just keep your theological opinions to yourself (so you don't cause any problems for others).

The way I see it, religion is primarily about community, ritual and food (and secondarily music, dance, and art). "Belief" falls way down the list. Being in a healthy community is really what it's all about, and we should never sacrifice that for attachment to any particular belief (which we may be wrong about anyway).

That's my 2 cents.
I think that's a good perspective. And I do agree that those are the most valuable things about a faith community and a religion; when people get too hung up on the "belief" and mythology part that's where we end up with the worst outcomes of religious zeal. It still feels problematic to me to stand up in church and recite creeds and other statements, and train my children to recite them, when I don't believe them.
 
Yet, there is the Project 2025 playbook. Maybe in that case fear isn't really the right word versus mindful awareness. As Maya Angelou said, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time".
I think "mindful awareness" is a good word. I think it's possible to warn about the dangers of the current right-wing agenda without fearmongering.
 
For me, the answer is really clear: go ahead and go, and just keep your theological opinions to yourself (so you don't cause any problems for others).

The way I see it, religion is primarily about community, ritual and food (and secondarily music, dance, and art). "Belief" falls way down the list. Being in a healthy community is really what it's all about, and we should never sacrifice that for attachment to any particular belief (which we may be wrong about anyway).

That's my 2 cents.

I'm not a Christian, but I appreciate this take on community and ritual, which informs my own religious practice (or at least tries to).

Apologies for putting you on the spot, but how would you describe the shift in "religion" and "belief" that Christianity sets off? TarSpiel no doubt already knows this but, for everybody else, I'm putting the word "religion" in scare quotes because there is a current in scholarship that regards it as a sort of Protestant-era development. In that sense, religion is a category that relies on liberal public-private distinctions. When "religion" emerges, it does so as a matter of private faith and sincere belief. Much contemporary religious practice bears this Protestant inheritance--for instance, read about the histories of Orthodox and Reform Judaism, and what's striking is how "protestant" they are at a sort of formal level. How Judaism Became a Religion is a good book on this topic.

To return to my original question, then, it's my understanding that Greek "religion" had no bearing on belief. It was a matter of practice and culture--caring for and feeding the gods, sincerity be damned. And Hellenistic Judaism likewise did not prize some sincere and private notion of faith. Faith was more like "trust" or "steadfastness," yes? So how does Christianity move the needle towards doctrine?

If my question is wrong-footed, please put it on blast, but with a gentleness that betrays your fondness for my supple skin and kissable lips.
 
Last edited:
To return to my original question, then, it's my understanding that Greek "religion" had no bearing on belief. It was a matter of practice and culture--caring for and feeding the gods, sincerity be damned. And Hellenistic Judaism likewise did not prize some sincere and private notion of faith. Faith was more like "trust" or "steadfastness," yes? So how does Christianity move the needle towards doctrine?

That's my understanding too, of both Greek and Roman religion. And I really don't know how Christianity moves the needle more towards doctrine...it's a really interesting question, and I'm sure there are super smart people who have thought about it a lot more than I have, and would have really good answers.

I thought about the conflict between Buddhism and Hinduism in the centuries before Christ, how some Buddhists denied the existence of the Hindu pantheon, and were called "atheists" in turn by the Hindus. And about the hundred schools of philosophy in China, and the Hellenistic schools in Greece, and how they all advocated for certain beliefs about the nature of the universe, of the gods and goddesses, of human beings, morality, etc. And the competing schools within Second Temple Judaism, some of which were incredibly hostile towards one another. And I guess I sort of ended up thinking that the transition from practice to belief was probably some sort of generalized Axial Age thing, that seems to be bound up with the spread of writing and literate consciousness, and to have affected cultures in many places at more or less the same time (c. 500 BC on). And Christianity comes along within that context and really heightens belief, especially centered around the one ritual of baptism.

I don't know, I'm just rambling. I think it's a super interesting question. Do you have any feel for how Christianity moves the needle towards belief and doctrine?
 
That's my understanding too, of both Greek and Roman religion. And I really don't know how Christianity moves the needle more towards doctrine...it's a really interesting question, and I'm sure there are super smart people who have thought about it a lot more than I have, and would have really good answers.

I thought about the conflict between Buddhism and Hinduism in the centuries before Christ, how some Buddhists denied the existence of the Hindu pantheon, and were called "atheists" in turn by the Hindus. And about the hundred schools of philosophy in China, and the Hellenistic schools in Greece, and how they all advocated for certain beliefs about the nature of the universe, of the gods and goddesses, of human beings, morality, etc. And the competing schools within Second Temple Judaism, some of which were incredibly hostile towards one another. And I guess I sort of ended up thinking that the transition from practice to belief was probably some sort of generalized Axial Age thing, that seems to be bound up with the spread of writing and literate consciousness, and to have affected cultures in many places at more or less the same time (c. 500 BC on). And Christianity comes along within that context and really heightens belief, especially centered around the one ritual of baptism.

I don't know, I'm just rambling. I think it's a super interesting question. Do you have any feel for how Christianity moves the needle towards belief and doctrine?

Phew. It's a relief to find out that I can make passably informed comments about religious studies.

I've never come across a single, sustained argument about the practice-belief dynamic, but I glean snippets here and there from scholars with other more immediate concerns. For example, the practice-belief dynamic sometimes arises in the limited scholarship I've read on the development of Torah study and prayer as alternatives to sacrifice in second temple Judaism. I guess the basic idea is that those forms of practice elicit a sort of attitude or disposition towards God--an inward turning--that may not be strictly required for sacrifice. In short, I don't have an answer, though I wish I did.

Here's where passably informed comments devolve into gibberish:

I like your talk of literacy. I'm fascinated by those moments in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian New Testament, and apocrypha where a particular book takes a reflexive turn, which is to say, where a book foregrounds its understanding of itself as scripture. That sort of reflexivity seems to be largely absent in, say, Genesis. But less so in Chronicles or extrabiblical books like Jubilees and Enoch that seek, it would seem, to self-consciously "re-biblicize" the Hellenistic period. I can't recall where I read it--maybe it was one of John Collins's books--but some scholar argued that wisdom and apocalyptic literature evinces nostalgia for a biblical era.

I'm no biblical encyclopedia, but some other moments that stand out on these reflexive grounds include the chapter in Nehemiah (6?) where Ezra reads the Torah (or some semblance thereof) to the assembled Judeans. The first 18-odd verses in the chapter basically model how the religious community should orient itself to the Torah. Or when Ezekiel talks about ingesting a scroll or when Jeremiah talks about writing the Torah on your heart. I think the New Testament has less of that, though 2 Corinthians picks up on Jeremiah (I think) and Revelation talks quite a bit about its own status as writing, not just oral prophecy.

And on those same lines, I'm quite interested in the history of biblical interpretation. NYU Press put out a pair of books on the history of Jewish and Christian scriptural interpretation--I've read the former, and I've still trying to carve out time for the latter. But I think one of the essays makes an interesting point about how the final redaction of the Torah put most would-be prophets out of business: going forward, the name of the game was interpretation.
 
Last edited:
Phew. It's a relief to find out that I can make passably informed comments about religious studies.

I've never come across a single, sustained argument about the practice-belief dynamic, but I glean snippets here and there from scholars with other more immediate concerns. For example, the practice-belief dynamic sometimes arises in the limited scholarship I've read on the development of Torah study and prayer as alternatives to sacrifice in second temple Judaism. I guess the basic idea is that those forms of practice elicit a sort of attitude or disposition towards God--an inward turning--that may not be strictly required for sacrifice. In short, I don't have an answer, though I wish I did.

Here's where passably informed comments devolve into gibberish:

I like your talk of literacy. I'm fascinated by those moments in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian New Testament, and apocrypha where a particular book takes a reflexive turn, which is to say, where a book foregrounds its understanding of itself as scripture. That sort of reflexivity seems to be largely absent in, say, Genesis. But less so in Chronicles or extrabiblical books like Jubilees and Enoch that seek, it would seem, to self-consciously "re-biblicize" the Hellenistic period. I can't recall where I read it--maybe it was one of John Collins's books--but some scholar argued that wisdom and apocalyptic literature evinces nostalgia for a biblical era.

I'm no biblical encyclopedia, but some other moments that stand out on these reflexive grounds include the chapter in Nehemiah (6?) where Ezra reads the Torah (or some semblance thereof) to the assembled Judeans. The first 18-odd verses in the chapter basically model how the religious community should orient itself to the Torah. Or when Ezekiel talks about ingesting a scroll or when Jeremiah talks about writing the Torah on your heart. I think the New Testament has less of that, though 2 Corinthians picks up on Jeremiah (I think) and Revelation talks quite a bit about its own status as writing, not just oral prophecy.

And on those same lines, I'm quite interested in the history of biblical interpretation. NYU Press put out a pair of books on the history of Jewish and Christian scriptural interpretation--I've read the former, and I've still trying to carve out time for the latter. But I think one of the essays makes an interesting point about how the final redaction of the Torah put most would-be prophets out of business: going forward, the name of the game was interpretation.

Lots of interesting stuff in here to respond to. First, a book I'd highly highly recommend for 2nd Temple Judaism is EP Sanders Judaism: Practice and Belief. It's sort of hard to get, but just fantastic and fascinating from cover to cover.

I have read some scholarship about how textuality killed prophecy in the HB period, and that was really germaine to my main research interests when I was involved in this sort of stuff. Jeremiah's line about the law being written on people's hearts really captures this moment so well. There has been some fantastic scholarship on the impact of literacy and textuality on human thought, I'd just mention Eric Havelock, Alfred Lord, Millman Parry, Walter Ong, and one of my personal favorite all time scholars Jack Goody.

One of the books Bart used a lot was called "Books and Readers in the Early Church" which sounds like it my be up your ally.

All those examples you cite in the HB are interesting. I'd throw in the fact that so many of those books were added on to during (or maybe after) the Exile, by people "updating" the original texts/prophets by writing in their own thoughts and perspectives. I remember at one time wondering if there was any book that did *not* have an additional later appended text.

In any event, the Axial Age more or less coincides with the spread of alphabetic script, which does not seem coincidental. (China is a partial exception, though there were significant simplifications during this time that pushed the script in the direction of a syllabary). And I guess I do tend to see this emphasis on doctrine, creed, belief, etc, and sort of connected to literate consciousness.
 
Lots of interesting stuff in here to respond to. First, a book I'd highly highly recommend for 2nd Temple Judaism is EP Sanders Judaism: Practice and Belief. It's sort of hard to get, but just fantastic and fascinating from cover to cover.

I have read some scholarship about how textuality killed prophecy in the HB period, and that was really germaine to my main research interests when I was involved in this sort of stuff. Jeremiah's line about the law being written on people's hearts really captures this moment so well. There has been some fantastic scholarship on the impact of literacy and textuality on human thought, I'd just mention Eric Havelock, Alfred Lord, Millman Parry, Walter Ong, and one of my personal favorite all time scholars Jack Goody.

One of the books Bart used a lot was called "Books and Readers in the Early Church" which sounds like it my be up your ally.

All those examples you cite in the HB are interesting. I'd throw in the fact that so many of those books were added on to during (or maybe after) the Exile, by people "updating" the original texts/prophets by writing in their own thoughts and perspectives. I remember at one time wondering if there was any book that did *not* have an additional later appended text.

In any event, the Axial Age more or less coincides with the spread of alphabetic script, which does not seem coincidental. (China is a partial exception, though there were significant simplifications during this time that pushed the script in the direction of a syllabary). And I guess I do tend to see this emphasis on doctrine, creed, belief, etc, and sort of connected to literate consciousness.
Good recommendation on EP Sanders work.
 
Thanks for those names--I'll check 'em out.

Speaking of Sanders, I hope it's not controversial to say that I find Paul very difficult to understand. I've only read a short Sanders book on Paul's covenantal nomism--I would hopelessly lose the forest for the trees in one of his longer works. If memory serves, in From Jesus to Christ, Paula Fredriksen argues for a sort of come-as-you-are Gentile-or-Jew approach to Pauline salvation. And I think I've heard more than a few other distinct takes.

I guess I struggle to understand Paul for a number of reasons: I might be dim; Paul's six or seven authentic extant writings are motivated by expediency and contingency, and not the concerns of systematic theology; more clearly than other areas of biblical scholarship, talk of Paul is filtered through scholarly schools of or approaches to his thought.

In sum, do you have a go-to Pauline take, or do you have a shorthand for understanding what the successive waves of Pauline scholarship stressed or un-stressed?
 
Last edited:
Lots of interesting stuff in here to respond to. First, a book I'd highly highly recommend for 2nd Temple Judaism is EP Sanders Judaism: Practice and Belief. It's sort of hard to get, but just fantastic and fascinating from cover to cover.

I have read some scholarship about how textuality killed prophecy in the HB period, and that was really germaine to my main research interests when I was involved in this sort of stuff. Jeremiah's line about the law being written on people's hearts really captures this moment so well. There has been some fantastic scholarship on the impact of literacy and textuality on human thought, I'd just mention Eric Havelock, Alfred Lord, Millman Parry, Walter Ong, and one of my personal favorite all time scholars Jack Goody.

One of the books Bart used a lot was called "Books and Readers in the Early Church" which sounds like it my be up your ally.

All those examples you cite in the HB are interesting. I'd throw in the fact that so many of those books were added on to during (or maybe after) the Exile, by people "updating" the original texts/prophets by writing in their own thoughts and perspectives. I remember at one time wondering if there was any book that did *not* have an additional later appended text.

In any event, the Axial Age more or less coincides with the spread of alphabetic script, which does not seem coincidental. (China is a partial exception, though there were significant simplifications during this time that pushed the script in the direction of a syllabary). And I guess I do tend to see this emphasis on doctrine, creed, belief, etc, and sort of connected to literate consciousness.

I neglected to tag you in the previous post. But I've enjoyed reading the previous exchanges too much to let this thread slip, so here goes nothing.

I am a masochist (safe word: "more"), so I occasionally listen to (hard) right-wing podcasts, the better to have some sense of how my political opponents understand the world. Some of these podcasts are explicitly Protestant--American Reform, Forge & Anvil, Hard Men (yes, hard men)--with hosts and/or frequent guests from the pulpit. I am often deeply confused by these Christians.

The Good

I do not reflexively disagree with every right-wing talking point. For example, one of these podcasts argued that there are conceptual and/or methodological problems within contemporary therapeutic approaches to mental health. I agree that our "feelings" are not the best barometer of how the world works. And I agree that contemporary usage of the word "trauma" cheapens it.

I also agree with a general impulse towards talking about human flourishing on these podcasts. Yes, liberalism stumbles to the extent that it struggles to formulate notions of human flourishing, though I think most post-liberalism (cf. Patrick Deneen) overstates the case: at the very least, liberalism formulates a notion of human flourishing inasmuch as it makes claims about the conditions for such flourishing (tolerance, secularism, individual freedom, public-private divides, etc.).

The Bad

I often deeply disagree with many of the basic stances--political, religious, or otherwise--of these podcasts: in particular, stances on taxation, public schooling, political violence, liberalism, abortion, LGBQT, etc.

While I agree that modern therapy is not perfect, and may be overweighing certain conceptual approaches, the Hard Men argue that therapy is anti-biblical. Because therapy insists on the ubiquity of trauma as a premise, for instance, the Turgid Men contend that it substitutes victimhood for sinfulness. "Biblical counseling" thus offers an alternative that tells the patient (would-be disciple?) to sack up, stop the sin, and put into play the tenets of "biblical patriarchy," most of which do not seem to reflect a desperate, hand-to-mouth subsistence lifestyle. Likewise, I do not know how people can root biblical patriarchy in the nuclear family when I'm pretty sure that actual biblical families were more akin to clans or tribes.

Right-wing protestant podcasts are resolutely anti-immigration and anti-feminist. Whatever else they are, I think these anti-immigrant and anti-feminist positions represent a bonkers approach to how modern institutions (in particular, educational ones) did, in fact, start to fail boys and men starting in the early 1970s. Here I cite the sociologist Richard Reeves--prior to Title IX, women were approximately 15 percentage points behind men in college attendance; now that number has been reversed. The job market has likewise shifted from manufacturing jobs (Tumescent Men!) to "caring" jobs that men customarily do not perform. Confronted with a radically changing working world, these conservative evangelical men turn to "biblical patriarchy" to reform labor market institutions in the dumbest way possible: keep out immigrants; keep women in kitchens. For these fellas, there is no political and/or institutional problem to solve, but only a radical evil to be expunged. Really, I'm astounded that capitalism never really comes up as an obstacle to the Christian vision--if anything, the problem is "woke" capture of corporations.

I understand the basis for anti-feminism in various Pauline epistles (pastoral ones, to boot), but what is the biblical basis for anti-immigrant positions? These men--these sweaty, hard men with exquisite cum gutters--often hand-wave at "Anglo-American culture," so I guess white separatism and/or cultural provincialism are the simplest explanations.

The Ugly

These podcasters use the word "gay" as a pejorative, like I would've used the word when I was a kid in the 1980s and 1990s. They also denounce therapy as a conspiracy on the part of Jews to emasculate men, which is to say, to shrink their massive engorged members, pulsing with righteousness. "Edgy," unbelievably dumb, and immoral stuff for anyone, much less these self-righteous folk.

These Christians also platform new crazies like Charles Haywood, a self-declared "Maximum Leader" with plans to become a future American warlord [?]. He is casually xenophobic and racist. He would excuse the former as a response to what he describes as widespread immigrant violence; he would sidestep the latter charge on the grounds that anti-white racism is the real problem. As for Christianity, he primarily prizes it, it would seem, for its capacity to order the world. And his vision of human flourishing, as far as I can tell, invites violence against his political enemies to the left, though he is eager to deny such attributions.

I get the apocalyptic (which is to say, Christian) basis for this good-and-evil vision of the world. But I always understood the apocalyptic to designate a "trust the plan"-style faithfulness. As such, where does the political activism come from?
 
Last edited:
I have a similar background to many of you in being raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist. My widowed mom even married a Southern Baptist minister when I was eight. Otoh, I have no formal religious (or any other kind, really) training.

I have so many many problems with the Abrahamic religions in general and Christianity that I hardly know how to begin. The reverence for Paul is one of them. Who is he and why is he who he is/ He's basically an opportunistic elitist who comes from privilege and has no background with Jesus. He argued with Peter who Jesus said was the rock on which his church would be built and James, Jesus' brother who just might be a little more familiar with what He was like. Paul had the pull to come and study at the Temple and volunteered to persecute the Christians. Then he has this miracle "conversion" and he's essentially the leader of Christianity. I don't get it.

From the outside looking in, his teaching don't strike me as being too Christlike. It really seems almost like the start of a reactionary movement in Christianity that reversed some of the gentler elements of Jesus and focus more on ritual and hierarchy.

Some time, if anyone has an interest, I love to discuss the validity of both the existence of Abraham and the Exodus story and what it means to modern world politics, how strongly held religious beliefs are bad for the economy and why astronomy makes a close personal relationship with any Creator or damage to the soul during its brief existence on earth moot.

Hey, Tar Spiel.
 
I have a similar background to many of you in being raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist. My widowed mom even married a Southern Baptist minister when I was eight. Otoh, I have no formal religious (or any other kind, really) training.

I have so many many problems with the Abrahamic religions in general and Christianity that I hardly know how to begin. The reverence for Paul is one of them. Who is he and why is he who he is/ He's basically an opportunistic elitist who comes from privilege and has no background with Jesus. He argued with Peter who Jesus said was the rock on which his church would be built and James, Jesus' brother who just might be a little more familiar with what He was like. Paul had the pull to come and study at the Temple and volunteered to persecute the Christians. Then he has this miracle "conversion" and he's essentially the leader of Christianity. I don't get it.

From the outside looking in, his teaching don't strike me as being too Christlike. It really seems almost like the start of a reactionary movement in Christianity that reversed some of the gentler elements of Jesus and focus more on ritual and hierarchy.

Some time, if anyone has an interest, I love to discuss the validity of both the existence of Abraham and the Exodus story and what it means to modern world politics, how strongly held religious beliefs are bad for the economy and why astronomy makes a close personal relationship with any Creator or damage to the soul during its brief existence on earth moot.

Hey, Tar Spiel.

Hello buddy.

It's really, really good to see you again.
 
I have a similar background to many of you in being raised as a fundamentalist Southern Baptist. My widowed mom even married a Southern Baptist minister when I was eight. Otoh, I have no formal religious (or any other kind, really) training.

I have so many many problems with the Abrahamic religions in general and Christianity that I hardly know how to begin. The reverence for Paul is one of them. Who is he and why is he who he is/ He's basically an opportunistic elitist who comes from privilege and has no background with Jesus. He argued with Peter who Jesus said was the rock on which his church would be built and James, Jesus' brother who just might be a little more familiar with what He was like. Paul had the pull to come and study at the Temple and volunteered to persecute the Christians. Then he has this miracle "conversion" and he's essentially the leader of Christianity. I don't get it.

From the outside looking in, his teaching don't strike me as being too Christlike. It really seems almost like the start of a reactionary movement in Christianity that reversed some of the gentler elements of Jesus and focus more on ritual and hierarchy.

Some time, if anyone has an interest, I love to discuss the validity of both the existence of Abraham and the Exodus story and what it means to modern world politics, how strongly held religious beliefs are bad for the economy and why astronomy makes a close personal relationship with any Creator or damage to the soul during its brief existence on earth moot.

Hey, Tar Spiel.

Not trying to step on TarSpiel's shoes since he undoubtedly has forgotten more about this stuff than I'll ever know.

But I think I can safely say that few, if any, secular scholars think that any of the patriarchs were actual people. Recently, Jacob Wright argued in Why the Bible Began that the individual patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph) reflect different northern and southern traditions (mostly northern though, I think) that were subsequently stitched together into a sequential generational narrative. In turn, the Exodus narrative represents another contemporaneous tradition that was tagged onto the end. Overall, Wright contends--and I'm sure he's not the first to make this basic argument--that the southern kingdom of Judah adapted the Yahwistic tradition to suture together a sense of a "people" in the absence of a monarch. Put another way, the kingdom of David was kaput, so the Judean scribes sought to make Yahweh into a god-monarch that could rule in the absence of direct political control.

Last I heard, there is zero evidence for a massive exodus of Jewish slaves out of Egypt, much less for the utter destruction of the Egyptian leadership and military.
 
The reverence for Paul is one of them. Who is he and why is he who he is/ He's basically an opportunistic elitist who comes from privilege and has no background with Jesus. He argued with Peter who Jesus said was the rock on which his church would be built and James, Jesus' brother who just might be a little more familiar with what He was like. Paul had the pull to come and study at the Temple and volunteered to persecute the Christians. Then he has this miracle "conversion" and he's essentially the leader of Christianity. I don't get it.

Totally agree with you about Paul.

I have such a deep connection and reverence for Jesus, and the times Paul even approaches that quality of spirit I could count on one hand. He never knew Jesus or heard his teachings, he got into fights and conflicts with James, Barnabas, the "superapostles" (ie, those who knew Jesus and were trying to follow his teachings) and pretty much anyone he came in contact with. He's just an asshole, and I don't find hardly anything in him worth starting a religion over. The only redeeming value I can see in him is that no one would have ever heard about Jesus if not for him. Other than that, he was an extremely spiritually immature person.

So yea, I'm with you on that one.
 
Totally agree with you about Paul.

I have such a deep connection and reverence for Jesus, and the times Paul even approaches that quality of spirit I could count on one hand. He never knew Jesus or heard his teachings, he got into fights and conflicts with James, Barnabas, the "superapostles" (ie, those who knew Jesus and were trying to follow his teachings) and pretty much anyone he came in contact with. He's just an asshole, and I don't find hardly anything in him worth starting a religion over. The only redeeming value I can see in him is that no one would have ever heard about Jesus if not for him. Other than that, he was an extremely spiritually immature person.

So yea, I'm with you on that one.
He did have a few moments like in the first letter to Corinthians. Still the evangelicals of today are a lot farther from Paul's faith hope and charity and closer to Hobbes' fear, greed and ambition than is good for anybody, including them. Their beliefs have become antithetical to both Christianity and democracy, although Christianity has always been an indifferent supporter of what most of the Founding Fathers believed.

Always been struck by the fact that less than 20% of Americans were church members when the Constitution was signed. I think Rodney Stark Christian apologist that he is, estimated that Georgia and NC were under 10 % and I know that wasn't lack of opportunity. If Beautancus in what is now Duplin County could start a Baptist church in 1756, opportunity was not it.
 
Back
Top