Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

[superrific]

There’s a difference between the disaffection we’re talking about in this thread and young men being soldiers generally.

I know. But it's still true even when applied to disaffection that leads to political unrest. Anyway, I was just being pedantic. It's really not important.

 

[TarSpiel]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

 

[superrific]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

When I was teaching law students, I didn't get that impression of what the students wanted, and that was professional school. I mean, it's not as if I talked to them about it in any detail, but I did ask about romantic relationships among students and there were surprisingly few. Some students were already married, but there were a lot of them who were still in party mode.

 

[wmheel1287]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

I agree with this about the young students I have. I have a pretty shocking number of 18-22 year old young men who take my classes. I saybshocking because that was an absolute rarity a decade ago but I now have 5-10 of them in every group. For the most part, they are super driven to be successful and really motivated to do the right things.

 

[TarSpiel]

For the most part, they are super driven to be successful and really motivated to do the right things.

I teach at a community college, so I wouldn't necessarily say that my students are super driven to be successful in general, but I absolutely agree with you on the second point, they really are motivated to do the right things. They're good kids.

 

[superrific]

I teach at a community college, so I wouldn't necessarily say that my students are super driven to be successful in general, but I absolutely agree with you on the second point, they really are motivated to do the right things. They're good kids.

Ha. Maybe I have a different experience because I was teaching law school. Maybe the good kids were filtered out, and probably filtered out even more by the fact that I taught corporate law. Corporate law was not (especially as I taught it) a conservative field of law, but that word "corporation" scares away a lot of liberals.

 

[05C40]

Link: They Used to Rule the World. What Happened? Opinion | They Used to Rule the World. What Happened?

Not sure where to put this, but didn't want to start a new thread. Don't find myself agreeing with Conservatives very often, but this is a thoughtful piece. Probably just another Brit wailing about what used to be. I'm getting old and part of getting old involves looking to the past for examples of what to do and what not to do. But from the stand point of "we've been through worse and survived," I do find this article hopeful, as in, now that America is looking into the abyss, there is ample precedence from walking away from the edge and choosing a different path. We need not leap into the abyss just because substantial numbers of our countrymen would rather burn it all down than share the crumbs the elites brush off their tables. If we're are unsatisfied with the crumbs the wealthy share with us, the solution is not to steal crumbs from those less fortunate than even we are. The solution is to demand that wealthy meaningly contribute to the costs of running the society from whence their wealth came.

 

[gregh1]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

I feel like this is the first post that pointed to something other than sex-ed, sexuality and sex in society. I was expecting to hear a few more "boys don't cry" type of opinions or thoughts.

 

[gregh1]

What Should Democrats Say to Young Men?

Young men appear to be drifting right. Ignoring them means trouble.

prospect.org

Good article in TAP today.

I spoke too soon. This article above is interesting stuff not 100% sex-related.

" diminished ability of men with less than a college education to support a family, while women have made gains in education and the postindustrial labor market..... The economic causes may lie in growing disparities in life chances between young men and women as the men fall behind women their age in education and college completion. "

"Trump offers young men a fantasy of manhood as an unapologetic assertion of dominance. It’s a vision that celebrates fame and power, aggression, and sex without obligations"

"Vance...exaltation of the old male-breadwinner family and sharp, biologically given distinctions between men and women."

You hear about depression and suicide skyrocketing in young teen girls and women, i wonder if there are some root stressors for both that are manifesting in ways that make red-pilling more easy for young boys & men, like employment/economic/social-pressure factors that are a little more unique pre gen X.

 

[superrific]

I feel like this is the first post that pointed to something other than sex-ed, sexuality and sex in society. I was expecting to hear a few more "boys don't cry" type of opinions or thoughts.

Part of the reason for that, I think, is that we're talking about young men. Some of the suggestions here would be great for reaching thirtysomethings, but by that age, a lot of them are gone forever.

I used to lurk on an incel forum, just to get a sense of the psychology. By far the most common complaint was that Becky and Stacy only want to do Chad. But a second complaint was about guys feeling stressed about their lack of knowledge. As you can imagine, a lot of newbs to the forum were there to tell their tale of woe. Some of them were about how they couldn't ever get a date, but there were a lot from guys who got a girl in bed but everything went south from there, and not in a good way. A lot of "it was my first time, and she wanted me to know everything" or "I tried, but she just wasn't happy." And then the commiserating replies made it clear that these dudes were doing what they saw in porn and being surprised that it wouldn't work.

I posted a single time on that forum (from a fake email that can't be traced to me, not that I know of), and it was something like "porn isn't realistic. Women are bitches [gotta say that for credibility with these folks] but you're a fool if you think women want irl what they want on film." That comment was not well-received. Maybe they saw through my feigned attempt to fit in. It certainly seemed, though, that this crowd either expected life to be like porn or they turned to porn because where else are they going to learn.

I mean, it doesn't even have to be sex-ed in schools. How about movies. Instead of showing the couple getting into bed, and then waking up the next morning, how about some depiction of what goes on. And I don't mean scenes of raucous but non-revealing sex (these are likely part of the problem). How about a scene where they are kissing, and the woman says, "can you lightly touch my breast?" or "I'd love a neck rub" or something along those lines. Do that for a minute and then you can cut away to dawn.

Of course we know why nobody will show that kind of thing. It doesn't have to be that way.

 

[nycfan]

“… Until the past decade or so, “there was an assumption that men just needed to show up for their life and they’ll get a job and have a family and be provided for, because they’re men,” says University of Maryland masculinity researcher Kevin M. Roy.

That is no longer true. While women now expect to have more and better opportunities than their mothers and grandmothers, men are in some ways bracing for the opposite. Researchers say that has created a crisis of purpose, especially for men at the entrance to adulthood. …”

 

[finesse]

“… Until the past decade or so, “there was an assumption that men just needed to show up for their life and they’ll get a job and have a family and be provided for, because they’re men,” says University of Maryland masculinity researcher Kevin M. Roy.

That is no longer true. While women now expect to have more and better opportunities than their mothers and grandmothers, men are in some ways bracing for the opposite. Researchers say that has created a crisis of purpose, especially for men at the entrance to adulthood. …”

Then they need to quit taking things for granted and find a need they fill. Screw a bunch of spoon feeding them. Don't blame society for the failures of you, your parents and , to a large part, the paternalistic religion of your choice. If you're losing on merit, you don't have the first single bitch coming to you.

They aren't the first generation. I had a fair number of friends who went to their grave frustrated because they never succeeded with the ease of their fathers and could never come to terms with it. I didn't have much sympathy for them and less for the new generation of males carrying on those "old" grudges. They should try it from the dawn of history.

 

[wmheel1287]

Then they need to quit taking things for granted and find a need they fill. Screw a bunch of spoon feeding them. Don't blame society for the failures of you, your parents and , to a large part, the paternalistic religion of your choice. If you're losing on merit, you don't have the first single bitch coming to you.

They aren't the first generation. I had a fair number of friends who went to their grave frustrated because they never succeeded with the ease of their fathers and could never come to terms with it. I didn't have much sympathy for them and less for the new generation of males carrying on those "old" grudges. They should try it from the dawn of history.

I'll tell you the observations of a 25 year elementary teacher...

"These fucking parents baby the shit out of boys now. It blows my mind".

His take is that for whatever reason, girls are now empowered and pushed to step out and make their own way while boy parents (and especially their mothers) are hovering helicopter monstrosities who don't let the kid breathe without a helmet, 14 prescription meds, and an EMT on standby.

 

[Paine]

Then they need to quit taking things for granted and find a need they fill. Screw a bunch of spoon feeding them. Don't blame society for the failures of you, your parents and , to a large part, the paternalistic religion of your choice. If you're losing on merit, you don't have the first single bitch coming to you.

They aren't the first generation. I had a fair number of friends who went to their grave frustrated because they never succeeded with the ease of their fathers and could never come to terms with it. I didn't have much sympathy for them and less for the new generation of males carrying on those "old" grudges. They should try it from the dawn of history.

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

 

[rodoheel]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

But here's the ultimate question: how do you get them to listen to those messages when they consistently choose (albeit influenced by the insidious social media algorithms) the toxic message instead?

The positive, uplifting messages are out there. Young men simply aren't choosing them. Maybe they're just getting drowned out in the cacophony of the modern internet, where folks like Musk are increasingly putting their thumb on the scale to control what messages get out (or at least get out the loudest). But still: at some level, you have to figure out how to get men to choose a message of hope, hard work, and security rather than choosing Adin Ross, the Paul brothers, Russell Brand, Joe Rogan, etc as their mentors and influences.

 

[finesse]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

I'm not making light of them. I don't know whether I failed the system or the system failed me but in 14 years of education I didn't learn a thing from any of my teachers. I learned a fair amount at school and in life, but I'm reasonably sure I have the fewest credentials of anyone on the board and likely less formal education.

I'm still of the notion that a large portion of the problem are mindsets, much of which start at home. Expectations are often fulfilled. The rambunctious boy might well have started with how you played with them as infants. I know there's more than that. I just don't think it's all the school's problem or cause.

 

[wmheel1287]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

I'm genuinely interested in this perspective. Yes, we do kind of take it for granted that boys mature at a slower pace, but I don't think anyone would agree that there was a disadvantage to boys in schools 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are starting them at the same age now so to me that begs the question of what caused the gap? Do you think it is just that we were holding girls back so much that we were artificially leveling the educational playing field and now that we support girls better they've flourished? I'm totally open to the idea of starting boys later and I'm sure my husband would likely agree. I will reiterate however that he sees the biggest part of the issue in moms of boys right now. They are overwhelming these kids in a not good way with love and protectiveness. Smothering is the word that comes to mind. And the same moms are entirely less overbearing with their girls. It's kind of odd.

 

[UNCatTech]

What Should Democrats Say to Young Men?

Young men appear to be drifting right. Ignoring them means trouble.

prospect.org

Good article in TAP today.

Interesting article.

Good point that the democrats have to be careful not to alienate young men or appear that they believe them all to be a problem.

Men can be masculine as well as compassionate and understanding.

 

[breepf]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

Opinion | The Men — and Boys — Are Not Alright (Published 2023)

Richard Reeves breaks down the evidence that many American males are falling behind in education, employment and health.

www.nytimes.com

 

[rodoheel]

I really hope Walz gets an opportunity in the debate tonight to lay out the Democratic Party's vision for what young men can and should be striving to be. IMO that's an important part of his role in this campaign - reaching out to young, disaffected men.