Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

[finesse]

“… Until the past decade or so, “there was an assumption that men just needed to show up for their life and they’ll get a job and have a family and be provided for, because they’re men,” says University of Maryland masculinity researcher Kevin M. Roy.

That is no longer true. While women now expect to have more and better opportunities than their mothers and grandmothers, men are in some ways bracing for the opposite. Researchers say that has created a crisis of purpose, especially for men at the entrance to adulthood. …”

Then they need to quit taking things for granted and find a need they fill. Screw a bunch of spoon feeding them. Don't blame society for the failures of you, your parents and , to a large part, the paternalistic religion of your choice. If you're losing on merit, you don't have the first single bitch coming to you.

They aren't the first generation. I had a fair number of friends who went to their grave frustrated because they never succeeded with the ease of their fathers and could never come to terms with it. I didn't have much sympathy for them and less for the new generation of males carrying on those "old" grudges. They should try it from the dawn of history.

 

[wmheel1287]

Then they need to quit taking things for granted and find a need they fill. Screw a bunch of spoon feeding them. Don't blame society for the failures of you, your parents and , to a large part, the paternalistic religion of your choice. If you're losing on merit, you don't have the first single bitch coming to you.

They aren't the first generation. I had a fair number of friends who went to their grave frustrated because they never succeeded with the ease of their fathers and could never come to terms with it. I didn't have much sympathy for them and less for the new generation of males carrying on those "old" grudges. They should try it from the dawn of history.

I'll tell you the observations of a 25 year elementary teacher...

"These fucking parents baby the shit out of boys now. It blows my mind".

His take is that for whatever reason, girls are now empowered and pushed to step out and make their own way while boy parents (and especially their mothers) are hovering helicopter monstrosities who don't let the kid breathe without a helmet, 14 prescription meds, and an EMT on standby.

 

[rodoheel]

In my experience, what young men need to hear is not techniques for lovemaking, but rather a vision of themselves providing stability, safety and material goods for their family, friends and community. I'm around young people all the time, and most of the young men I interact with want to become this type of person. There is not *nearly* enough healthy conversation on this issue, and so meatheads, grifters and the porn industry step in and influence them into a type of masculinity that revolves almost entirely around their wallets and their dicks.

But here's the ultimate question: how do you get them to listen to those messages when they consistently choose (albeit influenced by the insidious social media algorithms) the toxic message instead?

The positive, uplifting messages are out there. Young men simply aren't choosing them. Maybe they're just getting drowned out in the cacophony of the modern internet, where folks like Musk are increasingly putting their thumb on the scale to control what messages get out (or at least get out the loudest). But still: at some level, you have to figure out how to get men to choose a message of hope, hard work, and security rather than choosing Adin Ross, the Paul brothers, Russell Brand, Joe Rogan, etc as their mentors and influences.

 

[finesse]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

I'm not making light of them. I don't know whether I failed the system or the system failed me but in 14 years of education I didn't learn a thing from any of my teachers. I learned a fair amount at school and in life, but I'm reasonably sure I have the fewest credentials of anyone on the board and likely less formal education.

I'm still of the notion that a large portion of the problem are mindsets, much of which start at home. Expectations are often fulfilled. The rambunctious boy might well have started with how you played with them as infants. I know there's more than that. I just don't think it's all the school's problem or cause.

 

[wmheel1287]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

I'm genuinely interested in this perspective. Yes, we do kind of take it for granted that boys mature at a slower pace, but I don't think anyone would agree that there was a disadvantage to boys in schools 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are starting them at the same age now so to me that begs the question of what caused the gap? Do you think it is just that we were holding girls back so much that we were artificially leveling the educational playing field and now that we support girls better they've flourished? I'm totally open to the idea of starting boys later and I'm sure my husband would likely agree. I will reiterate however that he sees the biggest part of the issue in moms of boys right now. They are overwhelming these kids in a not good way with love and protectiveness. Smothering is the word that comes to mind. And the same moms are entirely less overbearing with their girls. It's kind of odd.

 

[UNCatTech]

What Should Democrats Say to Young Men?

Young men appear to be drifting right. Ignoring them means trouble.

prospect.org

Good article in TAP today.

Interesting article.

Good point that the democrats have to be careful not to alienate young men or appear that they believe them all to be a problem.

Men can be masculine as well as compassionate and understanding.

 

[breepf]

These young men are facing real issues. I don’t think telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is going to help, personally. In the same way that we have tried to level the playing field in employment for women, we have to start looking at what structures in society may be disadvantaging men, especially young men.

It’s clear that young men and boys are disadvantaged in the education system. It’s not because they just aren’t trying hard enough. We know that boys develop slower than girls, yet we start them at the same time in school and expect them to progress at the same rate. No wonder so many young boys are diagnosed with developmental delays, ADHD, etc. at that age.

There have been proposals to start boys a year later in school. There are steps we can take to fix this gap that has emerged in education. Just like we shouldn’t have told girls to just work harder to get a job in a market that they’re disadvantaged in, we can’t just tell boys to work harder. There are actual structures causing these issues, so let’s fix them.

Opinion | The Men — and Boys — Are Not Alright (Published 2023)

Richard Reeves breaks down the evidence that many American males are falling behind in education, employment and health.

www.nytimes.com

 

[rodoheel]

I really hope Walz gets an opportunity in the debate tonight to lay out the Democratic Party's vision for what young men can and should be striving to be. IMO that's an important part of his role in this campaign - reaching out to young, disaffected men.

 

[lawtig02]

I'm genuinely interested in this perspective. Yes, we do kind of take it for granted that boys mature at a slower pace, but I don't think anyone would agree that there was a disadvantage to boys in schools 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are starting them at the same age now so to me that begs the question of what caused the gap? Do you think it is just that we were holding girls back so much that we were artificially leveling the educational playing field and now that we support girls better they've flourished? I'm totally open to the idea of starting boys later and I'm sure my husband would likely agree. I will reiterate however that he sees the biggest part of the issue in moms of boys right now. They are overwhelming these kids in a not good way with love and protectiveness. Smothering is the word that comes to mind. And the same moms are entirely less overbearing with their girls. It's kind of odd.

This is just a hunch, and I may be wrong because I know girls live online these days as much as boys do. But it would make sense that the things that draw girls in, such as Snapchat and TikTok, while very problematic in their own way, are not as developmentally toxic as the things that draw boys in, such as gaming, porn, and bro culture. If you could draw up in a lab an online environment designed to impair young male development and create young men who are ignorant, paranoid, violent, and sexually dysfunctional, I’m not sure you could do any better than what they’re swimming in right now.

 

[05C40]

I remember in elementary school the teachers would write homework problems on the blackboard in chalk. We the students would have to copy these homework questions and turn in our answers the next day. The boys were slower than the girls at copying. You want to know how much slower? Slow enough that by the time the last boy had finished copying the question, the girls had already finished the answer, i.e., finished the homework assignment in real time. The teacher asked the girls not to answer the questions while waiting for the boys to catch-up, but to answer them at home.

I can distinctly remember being impressed the girls could copy the question and answer it in the same time that it took me to copy the question. It didn't scar me for life. It didn't make me hate the girls. It didn't leave me embittered by life. It just left me with a healthy respect for how mentally quick girls were when compared with guys.

In my hometown, one of my friends was a farm boy. His dad had a small farm. This boy took over the farm and turned it into a very successful and big corporation carrying the family name. This friend was a very nice guy, but wasn't the sharpest tool on the wall. He did, however, marry one of the girls who had copied the homework question and answered them in the same amount of time it took me to copy them. So everytime I saw an advertisement or billboard with the name of this corporate farm, I smiled and knew who the brains behind that corporation was.

 

[mpaer]

This is just a hunch, and I may be wrong because I know girls live online these days as much as boys do. But it would make sense that the things that draw girls in, such as Snapchat and TikTok, while very problematic in their own way, are not as developmentally toxic as the things that draw boys in, such as gaming, porn, and bro culture. If you could draw up in a lab an online environment designed to impair young male development and create young men who are ignorant, paranoid, violent, and sexually dysfunctional, I’m not sure you could do any better than what they’re swimming in right now.

At this point I am going with this...But it is pretty fascinating what is happening with College Admissions .I will admit if the majority of our leaders are Female in 20 years-I am all good with that

 

[wmheel1287]

I think there’s something to the artificially leveled playing field of old, as you say. I don’t want to discount the nurture portion of this argument completely, because I think there is something to it.

That being said, moms being overprotective of their boys, to me, doesn’t feel like it would be driving this crisis of masculinity. Just a hunch on my part, because I’m a son of a mom who was always a bit overbearing, but I did well in school.

Reeves brings up the fact that the vast majority of elementary education teachers are women. Could more male teachers at these levels help? I had one male teacher prior to high school.

Again, I don’t know what’s causing this. I don’t think anyone does yet. Reeves’ book does a good job of letting people know that it’s okay to examine the structures around this. Just because men have enjoyed privilege in certain parts of life and society for a long time doesn’t mean we can’t examine the disparities that are emerging in our modern time.

Great post and the lack of male teachers is a huge problem...and mostly driven by old men disparaging the profession and driving it into the ground. So long as teaching is a profession dominated by those who have spouses who make a lot more money (such as our household), males will be VERY absent from classrooms. Teaching needs to be treated with respect and we need an affirmative action of sorts to bring males into the classroom. I think any male who will commit to 10 years teaching elementary education should get free undergrad and graduate education at any university of their choosing, public or private.

 

[grimes70]

Somewhat recent historically. It wasn't that long ago that women had much fewer occupational choices. Secretaries and teachers. Teachers were highly regarded then. Not so much now. The Women's College (UNC-G) and Appalachain State Teachers College supplied a significant number of pubic school teachers. Some stayed in the profession; others quit once married with chilldren.

 

[finesse]

Somewhat recent historically. It wasn't that long ago that women had much fewer occupational choices. Secretaries and teachers. Teachers were highly regarded then. Not so much now. The Women's College (UNC-G) and Appalachain State Teachers College supplied a significant number of pubic school teachers. Some stayed in the profession; others quit once married with chilldren.

I always tease my older brother of going to ECTC. He's not quite that old but it was East Carolina College. It was still recently enough they were still touchy about it.

 

[finesse]

In my last five and a half years of treatment, I saw one male general surgeon and one male thoracic surgeon ,both for one time. I had three ENT surgeons, for various reasons, a radiation oncologist, a hematology oncologist and a general surgeon who were all female and that I saw multiple times. That's a big switch in the last 50 years since I've been an adult.

Otoh, a fair amount of the techs were male.

 

[Peppers49]

Great post and the lack of male teachers is a huge problem...and mostly driven by old men disparaging the profession and driving it into the ground. So long as teaching is a profession dominated by those who have spouses who make a lot more money (such as our household), males will be VERY absent from classrooms. Teaching needs to be treated with respect and we need an affirmative action of sorts to bring males into the classroom. I think any male who will commit to 10 years teaching elementary education should get free undergrad and graduate education at any university of their choosing, public or private.

I’m baffled by how many people I see casually disparage teachers and teaching as a profession. Quality education is incredibly important for our society. I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want the people actually providing education to not be as well supported as possible.

 

[mpaer]

I hate to say this but the people I see disparaging teachers are in large part the people whose kids do "below avg work " It's the damn teachers fault I guess
Deplorables

 

[gregh1]

Here’s an article by Reeves about “redshirting” boys from a couple of years ago in The Atlantic.

Redshirt the Boys

Why boys should start school a year later than girls

www.theatlantic.com

Should be able to bypass the pay wall with 12ft.io or a similar tool.

I saw a thing discussing the gross misdiagnosis of ADHD in boys simply because they were less mature compared to averages of behavior which were often relatively high due to girls just being different from boys at young ages.

 

[nycfan]

I was always one of the youngest kids in my class, and in kindergarten the smallest (we had to line up by height for some reason). When my parents considered having me skip ahead a grade (a fairly common practice in the 70s), my relative youth already made them decide against it.

Anyway, I will have to look for the research about why this should become the norm for boys but not girls.

 

[superrific]

This discussion has taken a turn, which is fine but it's important to distinguish between two issues:

A. Red-pilling and the embrace of toxic masculinity;
B. Stagnating economic or educational opportunities for boys

1. I think there are a lot of people on this thread contending, with various degrees of explicitness, that these two phenomena are linked, and specifically that A is a reaction to B. That's not necessarily true, right? It's an optimistic theory that XY individuals will become "men" -- that is, respectful, caring and supportive of other people -- when their economic anxieties are resolved and they find stable, satisfying employment. Until then, they are vulnerable to being red-pilled by people taking advantage of those anxieties.

But that's not necessarily the relationship between those two factors. It could be that A is causing B, which is an unsettling prospect, but one that I think is probably a significant causal pathway. Or it could be that both are happening, but there's no causality between them.

Notice above I used the phrase "economic anxieties." I think that's a fair encapsulation of much of the discussion in the last page or two. If that reminds you of the exhausting conversations from 2016-18, when we read countless profiles of run down rural areas where the jobs left and the people only turned to Trump because of the bitterness created by the lack of economic opportunities -- well, that's the point. And I think most people have come to accept that the appeal of MAGA isn't really about that at all. That's merely a symptom.

I'm not any more convinced that incels or the red-pilled more generally are economically anxious. By and large, incels are not economically desperate. The stereotype of guys who live in basements with little education and no job isn't wholly false, but those also aren't the guys slurping up Andrew Tate's misogyny. The majority of incels or "bros" have college degrees and above salaries. Some have graduate or professional education.

2. It's worth considering the primacy of Asian men in incel culture. I have no idea whether Asians are actually disproportionately incel (good data is hard to find about this community, not surprisingly), but they are prevalent enough to have their own moniker: ricecels. And it was a ricecel who killed all those people in California (Isla Vista).

These men often have good jobs and good educations, and feel as though they should be successful with women. Why aren't they? By their telling, it's because people think they have small penises. According to my son, whose male friends are almost all East or South Asian, this is a persistent fear. I've also talked with Asian men, and seen them on incel forums, and the small dick anxiety is real. It probably creates a feedback loop, in which stereotypes about SDs create unattractive SDE. It sure doesn't help that Asian men are shorter than average in the U.S.

And Asian men are also angry about interracial dating because they think that white men steal their ladies. They think black dudes have it great, because they have a whole pool of women to choose from. After all, white guys rarely go after black women (that's one of the rarest interracial combos), and studies of dating sites have shown that black women are the least sought-after demographic. Asian women, by contrast, were found to be the most attractive -- while Asian men are often found to be the least sought-after group. So short black guys can find a lady; short Latino guys can find a lady; but Asian men are at the bottom.

To me, this suggests that red-pilling is less about economic or professional anxiety, and more about sexual or romantic anxiety.