Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

[lawtig02]

I'm genuinely interested in this perspective. Yes, we do kind of take it for granted that boys mature at a slower pace, but I don't think anyone would agree that there was a disadvantage to boys in schools 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are starting them at the same age now so to me that begs the question of what caused the gap? Do you think it is just that we were holding girls back so much that we were artificially leveling the educational playing field and now that we support girls better they've flourished? I'm totally open to the idea of starting boys later and I'm sure my husband would likely agree. I will reiterate however that he sees the biggest part of the issue in moms of boys right now. They are overwhelming these kids in a not good way with love and protectiveness. Smothering is the word that comes to mind. And the same moms are entirely less overbearing with their girls. It's kind of odd.

This is just a hunch, and I may be wrong because I know girls live online these days as much as boys do. But it would make sense that the things that draw girls in, such as Snapchat and TikTok, while very problematic in their own way, are not as developmentally toxic as the things that draw boys in, such as gaming, porn, and bro culture. If you could draw up in a lab an online environment designed to impair young male development and create young men who are ignorant, paranoid, violent, and sexually dysfunctional, I’m not sure you could do any better than what they’re swimming in right now.

 

[Paine]

Opinion | The Men — and Boys — Are Not Alright (Published 2023)

Richard Reeves breaks down the evidence that many American males are falling behind in education, employment and health.

www.nytimes.com

Im reading Reeves’ book “Of Boys and Men” right now, that’s where I got the info about starting boys a year later in school.

I’d recommend anyone who has been interested in what we’ve discussed in this thread to read it as well.

 

[05C40]

I remember in elementary school the teachers would write homework problems on the blackboard in chalk. We the students would have to copy these homework questions and turn in our answers the next day. The boys were slower than the girls at copying. You want to know how much slower? Slow enough that by the time the last boy had finished copying the question, the girls had already finished the answer, i.e., finished the homework assignment in real time. The teacher asked the girls not to answer the questions while waiting for the boys to catch-up, but to answer them at home.

I can distinctly remember being impressed the girls could copy the question and answer it in the same time that it took me to copy the question. It didn't scar me for life. It didn't make me hate the girls. It didn't leave me embittered by life. It just left me with a healthy respect for how mentally quick girls were when compared with guys.

In my hometown, one of my friends was a farm boy. His dad had a small farm. This boy took over the farm and turned it into a very successful and big corporation carrying the family name. This friend was a very nice guy, but wasn't the sharpest tool on the wall. He did, however, marry one of the girls who had copied the homework question and answered them in the same amount of time it took me to copy them. So everytime I saw an advertisement or billboard with the name of this corporate farm, I smiled and knew who the brains behind that corporation was.

 

[Paine]

I'm genuinely interested in this perspective. Yes, we do kind of take it for granted that boys mature at a slower pace, but I don't think anyone would agree that there was a disadvantage to boys in schools 20, 30, 40 years ago. We are starting them at the same age now so to me that begs the question of what caused the gap? Do you think it is just that we were holding girls back so much that we were artificially leveling the educational playing field and now that we support girls better they've flourished? I'm totally open to the idea of starting boys later and I'm sure my husband would likely agree. I will reiterate however that he sees the biggest part of the issue in moms of boys right now. They are overwhelming these kids in a not good way with love and protectiveness. Smothering is the word that comes to mind. And the same moms are entirely less overbearing with their girls. It's kind of odd.

I think there’s something to the artificially leveled playing field of old, as you say. I don’t want to discount the nurture portion of this argument completely, because I think there is something to it.

That being said, moms being overprotective of their boys, to me, doesn’t feel like it would be driving this crisis of masculinity. Just a hunch on my part, because I’m a son of a mom who was always a bit overbearing, but I did well in school.

Reeves brings up the fact that the vast majority of elementary education teachers are women. Could more male teachers at these levels help? I had one male teacher prior to high school.

Again, I don’t know what’s causing this. I don’t think anyone does yet. Reeves’ book does a good job of letting people know that it’s okay to examine the structures around this. Just because men have enjoyed privilege in certain parts of life and society for a long time doesn’t mean we can’t examine the disparities that are emerging in our modern time.

 

[mpaer]

This is just a hunch, and I may be wrong because I know girls live online these days as much as boys do. But it would make sense that the things that draw girls in, such as Snapchat and TikTok, while very problematic in their own way, are not as developmentally toxic as the things that draw boys in, such as gaming, porn, and bro culture. If you could draw up in a lab an online environment designed to impair young male development and create young men who are ignorant, paranoid, violent, and sexually dysfunctional, I’m not sure you could do any better than what they’re swimming in right now.

At this point I am going with this...But it is pretty fascinating what is happening with College Admissions .I will admit if the majority of our leaders are Female in 20 years-I am all good with that

 

[wmheel1287]

I think there’s something to the artificially leveled playing field of old, as you say. I don’t want to discount the nurture portion of this argument completely, because I think there is something to it.

That being said, moms being overprotective of their boys, to me, doesn’t feel like it would be driving this crisis of masculinity. Just a hunch on my part, because I’m a son of a mom who was always a bit overbearing, but I did well in school.

Reeves brings up the fact that the vast majority of elementary education teachers are women. Could more male teachers at these levels help? I had one male teacher prior to high school.

Again, I don’t know what’s causing this. I don’t think anyone does yet. Reeves’ book does a good job of letting people know that it’s okay to examine the structures around this. Just because men have enjoyed privilege in certain parts of life and society for a long time doesn’t mean we can’t examine the disparities that are emerging in our modern time.

Great post and the lack of male teachers is a huge problem...and mostly driven by old men disparaging the profession and driving it into the ground. So long as teaching is a profession dominated by those who have spouses who make a lot more money (such as our household), males will be VERY absent from classrooms. Teaching needs to be treated with respect and we need an affirmative action of sorts to bring males into the classroom. I think any male who will commit to 10 years teaching elementary education should get free undergrad and graduate education at any university of their choosing, public or private.

 

[grimes70]

Somewhat recent historically. It wasn't that long ago that women had much fewer occupational choices. Secretaries and teachers. Teachers were highly regarded then. Not so much now. The Women's College (UNC-G) and Appalachain State Teachers College supplied a significant number of pubic school teachers. Some stayed in the profession; others quit once married with chilldren.

 

[finesse]

Somewhat recent historically. It wasn't that long ago that women had much fewer occupational choices. Secretaries and teachers. Teachers were highly regarded then. Not so much now. The Women's College (UNC-G) and Appalachain State Teachers College supplied a significant number of pubic school teachers. Some stayed in the profession; others quit once married with chilldren.

I always tease my older brother of going to ECTC. He's not quite that old but it was East Carolina College. It was still recently enough they were still touchy about it.

 

[Paine]

Great post and the lack of male teachers is a huge problem...and mostly driven by old men disparaging the profession and driving it into the ground. So long as teaching is a profession dominated by those who have spouses who make a lot more money (such as our household), males will be VERY absent from classrooms. Teaching needs to be treated with respect and we need an affirmative action of sorts to bring males into the classroom. I think any male who will commit to 10 years teaching elementary education should get free undergrad and graduate education at any university of their choosing, public or private.

100%. We’ve discussed the need for more women in STEM, it’s time to discuss how to get more men in the fields of education and healthcare.

 

[finesse]

In my last five and a half years of treatment, I saw one male general surgeon and one male thoracic surgeon ,both for one time. I had three ENT surgeons, for various reasons, a radiation oncologist, a hematology oncologist and a general surgeon who were all female and that I saw multiple times. That's a big switch in the last 50 years since I've been an adult.

Otoh, a fair amount of the techs were male.

 

[Peppers49]

Great post and the lack of male teachers is a huge problem...and mostly driven by old men disparaging the profession and driving it into the ground. So long as teaching is a profession dominated by those who have spouses who make a lot more money (such as our household), males will be VERY absent from classrooms. Teaching needs to be treated with respect and we need an affirmative action of sorts to bring males into the classroom. I think any male who will commit to 10 years teaching elementary education should get free undergrad and graduate education at any university of their choosing, public or private.

I’m baffled by how many people I see casually disparage teachers and teaching as a profession. Quality education is incredibly important for our society. I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want the people actually providing education to not be as well supported as possible.

 

[Paine]

I’m baffled by how many people I see casually disparage teachers and teaching as a profession. Quality education is incredibly important for our society. I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want the people actually providing education to not be as well supported as possible.

It’s been a project of the right wing for decades to disparage public education and public educators. They know that the public ed system is one of the last remaining institutions in this country that actively encourages solidarity among people who have different interests/backgrounds otherwise.

Sadly, people that don’t see the anti-majoritarian freaks driving this anti-public ed movement are still more than happy to jump on the teacher hating bandwagon. Especially after COVID and the book banning/Moms for Liberty stuff.

 

[mpaer]

I hate to say this but the people I see disparaging teachers are in large part the people whose kids do "below avg work " It's the damn teachers fault I guess
Deplorables

 

[Paine]

Here’s an article by Reeves about “redshirting” boys from a couple of years ago in The Atlantic.

Redshirt the Boys

Why boys should start school a year later than girls

www.theatlantic.com

Should be able to bypass the pay wall with 12ft.io or a similar tool.

 

[gregh1]

Here’s an article by Reeves about “redshirting” boys from a couple of years ago in The Atlantic.

Redshirt the Boys

Why boys should start school a year later than girls

www.theatlantic.com

Should be able to bypass the pay wall with 12ft.io or a similar tool.

I saw a thing discussing the gross misdiagnosis of ADHD in boys simply because they were less mature compared to averages of behavior which were often relatively high due to girls just being different from boys at young ages.

 

[Paine]

I saw a thing discussing the gross misdiagnosis of ADHD in boys simply because they were less mature compared to averages of behavior which were often relatively high due to girls just being different from boys at young ages.

I believe the frontal lobe is developing into the 20s, and it develops more quickly in girls.

Makes a lot of sense. The girls I hung out with in college all seemed to be a lot more mature and focused than 90% of my male friends. Honestly wish I could’ve delayed my entry into college just to have some more emotional maturity going into it.

 

[nycfan]

I was always one of the youngest kids in my class, and in kindergarten the smallest (we had to line up by height for some reason). When my parents considered having me skip ahead a grade (a fairly common practice in the 70s), my relative youth already made them decide against it.

Anyway, I will have to look for the research about why this should become the norm for boys but not girls.

 

[superrific]

This discussion has taken a turn, which is fine but it's important to distinguish between two issues:

A. Red-pilling and the embrace of toxic masculinity;
B. Stagnating economic or educational opportunities for boys

1. I think there are a lot of people on this thread contending, with various degrees of explicitness, that these two phenomena are linked, and specifically that A is a reaction to B. That's not necessarily true, right? It's an optimistic theory that XY individuals will become "men" -- that is, respectful, caring and supportive of other people -- when their economic anxieties are resolved and they find stable, satisfying employment. Until then, they are vulnerable to being red-pilled by people taking advantage of those anxieties.

But that's not necessarily the relationship between those two factors. It could be that A is causing B, which is an unsettling prospect, but one that I think is probably a significant causal pathway. Or it could be that both are happening, but there's no causality between them.

Notice above I used the phrase "economic anxieties." I think that's a fair encapsulation of much of the discussion in the last page or two. If that reminds you of the exhausting conversations from 2016-18, when we read countless profiles of run down rural areas where the jobs left and the people only turned to Trump because of the bitterness created by the lack of economic opportunities -- well, that's the point. And I think most people have come to accept that the appeal of MAGA isn't really about that at all. That's merely a symptom.

I'm not any more convinced that incels or the red-pilled more generally are economically anxious. By and large, incels are not economically desperate. The stereotype of guys who live in basements with little education and no job isn't wholly false, but those also aren't the guys slurping up Andrew Tate's misogyny. The majority of incels or "bros" have college degrees and above salaries. Some have graduate or professional education.

2. It's worth considering the primacy of Asian men in incel culture. I have no idea whether Asians are actually disproportionately incel (good data is hard to find about this community, not surprisingly), but they are prevalent enough to have their own moniker: ricecels. And it was a ricecel who killed all those people in California (Isla Vista).

These men often have good jobs and good educations, and feel as though they should be successful with women. Why aren't they? By their telling, it's because people think they have small penises. According to my son, whose male friends are almost all East or South Asian, this is a persistent fear. I've also talked with Asian men, and seen them on incel forums, and the small dick anxiety is real. It probably creates a feedback loop, in which stereotypes about SDs create unattractive SDE. It sure doesn't help that Asian men are shorter than average in the U.S.

And Asian men are also angry about interracial dating because they think that white men steal their ladies. They think black dudes have it great, because they have a whole pool of women to choose from. After all, white guys rarely go after black women (that's one of the rarest interracial combos), and studies of dating sites have shown that black women are the least sought-after demographic. Asian women, by contrast, were found to be the most attractive -- while Asian men are often found to be the least sought-after group. So short black guys can find a lady; short Latino guys can find a lady; but Asian men are at the bottom.

To me, this suggests that red-pilling is less about economic or professional anxiety, and more about sexual or romantic anxiety.

 

[nycfan]

Here’s an article by Reeves about “redshirting” boys from a couple of years ago in The Atlantic.

Redshirt the Boys

Why boys should start school a year later than girls

www.theatlantic.com

Should be able to bypass the pay wall with 12ft.io or a similar tool.

Gift link to this Atlantic article: Redshirt the Boys

 

[Paine]

This discussion has taken a turn, which is fine but it's important to distinguish between two issues:

A. Red-pilling and the embrace of toxic masculinity;
B. Stagnating economic or educational opportunities for boys

1. I think there are a lot of people on this thread contending, with various degrees of explicitness, that these two phenomena are linked, and specifically that A is a reaction to B. That's not necessarily true, right? It's an optimistic theory that XY individuals will become "men" -- that is, respectful, caring and supportive of other people -- when their economic anxieties are resolved and they find stable, satisfying employment. Until then, they are vulnerable to being red-pilled by people taking advantage of those anxieties.

But that's not necessarily the relationship between those two factors. It could be that A is causing B, which is an unsettling prospect, but one that I think is probably a significant causal pathway. Or it could be that both are happening, but there's no causality between them.

Notice above I used the phrase "economic anxieties." I think that's a fair encapsulation of much of the discussion in the last page or two. If that reminds you of the exhausting conversations from 2016-18, when we read countless profiles of run down rural areas where the jobs left and the people only turned to Trump because of the bitterness created by the lack of economic opportunities -- well, that's the point. And I think most people have come to accept that the appeal of MAGA isn't really about that at all. That's merely a symptom.

I'm not any more convinced that incels or the red-pilled more generally are economically anxious. By and large, incels are not economically desperate. The stereotype of guys who live in basements with little education and no job isn't wholly false, but those also aren't the guys slurping up Andrew Tate's misogyny. The majority of incels or "bros" have college degrees and above salaries. Some have graduate or professional education.

2. It's worth considering the primacy of Asian men in incel culture. I have no idea whether Asians are actually disproportionately incel (good data is hard to find about this community, not surprisingly), but they are prevalent enough to have their own moniker: ricecels. And it was a ricecel who killed all those people in California (Isla Vista).

These men often have good jobs and good educations, and feel as though they should be successful with women. Why aren't they? By their telling, it's because people think they have small penises. According to my son, whose male friends are almost all East or South Asian, this is a persistent fear. I've also talked with Asian men, and seen them on incel forums, and the small dick anxiety is real. It probably creates a feedback loop, in which stereotypes about SDs create unattractive SDE. It sure doesn't help that Asian men are shorter than average in the U.S.

And Asian men are also angry about interracial dating because they think that white men steal their ladies. They think black dudes have it great, because they have a whole pool of women to choose from. After all, white guys rarely go after black women (that's one of the rarest interracial combos), and studies of dating sites have shown that black women are the least sought-after demographic. Asian women, by contrast, were found to be the most attractive -- while Asian men are often found to be the least sought-after group. So short black guys can find a lady; short Latino guys can find a lady; but Asian men are at the bottom.

To me, this suggests that red-pilling is less about economic or professional anxiety, and more about sexual or romantic anxiety.

I think this thread has been a lot more productive since we got off the sexual stuff. I don’t think that is nearly as important as economic factors. It’s fine that you think that, but it’s clear a lot of people don’t agree.