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Toxic masculinity and red pilling boys and young men

  • Thread starter Thread starter nycfan
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HeelInTheOzarks said:
Even expecting everyone to do community college or post k12 training is a pipe dream.
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There are never again going to be large numbers of good jobs for people with only a high school diploma unless the quality and content of high school education changes. So what is more realistic? An across the board improvement in public education? Or specific efforts to create low cost one or two year community college programs in partnership with industry to prepare people for jobs.
 
In My Mind said:
There are never again going to be large numbers of good jobs for people with only a high school diploma unless the quality and content of high school education changes. So what is more realistic? An across the board improvement in public education? Or specific efforts to create low cost one or two year community college programs in partnership with industry to prepare people for jobs.
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My youngest son has found that tech certifications are highly valuable. A high school/community college level program to guide kids through those paths should probably be part of it. We might even consider a freshman introductory course in case the best courses for that diverge from a more traditional approach.

You're absolutely right that a high school education isn't likely to get you a good job by itself. It was different when I graduated in 1970. The first place I saw those jobs start going were labor jobs in construction. Fork lifts and backhoes cut those jobs probably close to half. Those all paid around 50-75% more than minimum wage. A man could live a modest family life on that back then.
 
finesse said:
My youngest son has found that tech certifications are highly valuable. A high school/community college level program to guide kids through those paths should probably be part of it. We might even consider a freshman introductory course in case the best courses for that diverge from a more traditional approach.

You're absolutely right that a high school education isn't likely to get you a good job by itself. It was different when I graduated in 1970. The first place I saw those jobs start going were labor jobs in construction. Fork lifts and backhoes cut those jobs probably close to half. Those all paid around 50-75% more than minimum wage. A man could live a modest family life on that back then.
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One of my HS classmates 50+ years was a smart kid especially math/science. Instead of college he began work as an electrician. Many thought it was a waste. He eventually had his own company, employed 50+, opened a second one at the coast, and for all intents and purposes retired and fished in his late 40s other than keeping an eye on the businesses. Sold them some years ago and has had a last laugh at those who looked down upon him.
 
grimes70 said:
One of my HS classmates 50+ years was a smart kid especially math/science. Instead of college he began work as an electrician. Many thought it was a waste. He eventually had his own company, employed 50+, opened a second one at the coast, and for all intents and purposes retired and fished in his late 40s other than keeping an eye on the businesses. Sold them some years ago and has had a last laugh at those who looked down upon him.
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that's a great story but...it's kind of part of the problem. Most people who enter the trades will not end up as rich business owners. Maybe they will eventually go out as sole proprietors but most of them are going to work for someone else. And that's fine. You should be able to have a good life and good healthcare and a good retirement working in a skilled trade. We spend too much time glorifying wealth and not enough glorifying (and rewarding) work.

Not to mention becoming an electrician does require significant post-secondary school training. I don't know if your friend went the apprentice route or not but it's a great model but what's even better would be a community college program developed jointly with the IBEW that combined apprenticeship with some additional courses in math and technical subjects.
 
In My Mind said:
There are never again going to be large numbers of good jobs for people with only a high school diploma unless the quality and content of high school education changes. So what is more realistic? An across the board improvement in public education? Or specific efforts to create low cost one or two year community college programs in partnership with industry to prepare people for jobs.
Click to expand...
I'm not convinced a high school curriculum actually exists anymore. I work in higher ed and so many students enter college with a crapload of college credits that I always wonder "what are they supposed to learn in high school, if this kid got to replace it all with college credits?" (and a lot of those credits don't apply to their degree, but that's an argument for another day).

It seems like we could do a hell of a lot better with the non-college bound students in our K12 schools by getting them some job training. Some school districts have students graduate high school with an associate degree. If that's a general education associate degree then I don't see a ton of value in it, but I do see value in those who don't want to go to college to be able to finish high school with a technical certificate in something or at least some sort of workplace certification.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, the majority of those who won't seek postsecondary education are going to be men and there needs to be something they can do to be productive in society, especially if automation is going to continue to eat away at manual labor type jobs.
 
HeelInTheOzarks said:
I'm not convinced a high school curriculum actually exists anymore. I work in higher ed and so many students enter college with a crapload of college credits that I always wonder "what are they supposed to learn in high school, if this kid got to replace it all with college credits?" (and a lot of those credits don't apply to their degree, but that's an argument for another day).

It seems like we could do a hell of a lot better with the non-college bound students in our K12 schools by getting them some job training. Some school districts have students graduate high school with an associate degree. If that's a general education associate degree then I don't see a ton of value in it, but I do see value in those who don't want to go to college to be able to finish high school with a technical certificate in something or at least some sort of workplace certification.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, the majority of those who won't seek postsecondary education are going to be men and there needs to be something they can do to be productive in society, especially if automation is going to continue to eat away at manual labor type jobs.
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Great post
 
HeelInTheOzarks said:
I was just listening to a podcast about incel culture the other day in the middle of a 17 hour cross country drive.

I had not thought deeply about how marriage (or just partner-choosing) has radically changed since women have been in the workforce. The point was made that as few as 50 years ago, pretty much any man was going to make more money than any woman and therefore the pool of potential husbands that would economically improve a woman’s life was huge. These days this narrows considerably as people tend to marry within their socioeconomic bracket and a successful career woman is not going to probably be interested in some loser sitting around watching Andrew Tate videos and complaining that the world is unfair instead of doing something for himself.

But that’s only the relationship side…you also have to take into account that the further we move away from an economy that has lots of jobs in manual labor, factory work, agriculture, or trades that require short term education…the less opportunity for a male to put no effort into school but make it based on a willingness to work and therefore support himself and a family.

Women and girls have always had to put so much more into education in order to make it in the workplace and society has not adjusted to this yet. As our economy becomes even more focused on service and includes even more automation, it will get worse before it gets better.

I also saw a special report on MSNBC where Alex Wagner went to a union hall in Pennsylvania and talked to the workers there about the election. The older guys were all Harris supporters but the 20somethings were all either Trump or “undecided” but leaning Trump. They all parroted talking points about the southern border but had no idea how any policies were helping their jobs directly. But they’re blue collar guys in a country where blue collar jobs are drying up, so I’m not surprised. Easy to blame immigrants for stopping them from living the American dream rather than adjust to what the job market really is looking for.

I continue to think we have to be creative as a country in what our kids can do with a high school education. Even expecting everyone to do community college or post k12 training is a pipe dream. We need opportunities for people to make a decent living and based on how people currently parent and what society pushes the genders toward academically, the majority of those non-college people are going to be men.
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50 years ago, 1974, a woman couldn't have a credit card in her name. Yes, I agree much has changed in the last 50 years for women and relationships.

All good points. I was listening to a podcast a few weeks ago that went into some of the same points about young men and the struggles they have with education, being providers, and dating. One thing I recall they said that most women marry equal or up to their socioeconomic status, while most men marry equal or down. Which is even more of a challenge with women moving up that ladder.
 
mpaer said:
My only comment other than thank you for your post
I certainly don't want NC to rely on shit jobs in pig processing plants etc....... New plan needed
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And so many trumpers don't seem to realize that the promise to bring back the manufacturing jobs isn't all it seems to be.

Manufacturing jobs that require little skill and knowledge are not going to pay well enough.

Another confusing part of the trump campaign, they claim to be looking to the future while constantly talking about the past. Get out of the past and present a plan instead of the concept of a plan that's hidden away in his head.
 
superrific said:
And for that reason, those podcasts would not invite them on.
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I’m sure that’s true for some of them. I’d find it hard to believe that Theo Von would say no if Tim Walz or Kamala Harris wanted to come on.

I feel like any of them would find it hard to turn down Obama.
 
Rogan certainly would've back in the day, I'm not sure he'd risk the blowback now...
 
Paine said:
I’m sure that’s true for some of them. I’d find it hard to believe that Theo Von would say no if Tim Walz or Kamala Harris wanted to come on.

I feel like any of them would find it hard to turn down Obama.
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Maybe. You almost assuredly know more about podcasts than I do. It would be hard to know less -- I mean, it's theoretically possible, given that I know what a podcast is, but I am pretty sure that I'm in the bottom quintile for my age in knowledge of podcasting.
 


Hasan Piker on Crooked Media talking about bro-culture and Trump. Glad Crooked is having on Hasan again.
 
HeelInTheOzarks said:
I'm not convinced a high school curriculum actually exists anymore. I work in higher ed and so many students enter college with a crapload of college credits that I always wonder "what are they supposed to learn in high school, if this kid got to replace it all with college credits?" (and a lot of those credits don't apply to their degree, but that's an argument for another day).

It seems like we could do a hell of a lot better with the non-college bound students in our K12 schools by getting them some job training. Some school districts have students graduate high school with an associate degree. If that's a general education associate degree then I don't see a ton of value in it, but I do see value in those who don't want to go to college to be able to finish high school with a technical certificate in something or at least some sort of workplace certification.

Going back to the main topic of the thread, the majority of those who won't seek postsecondary education are going to be men and there needs to be something they can do to be productive in society, especially if automation is going to continue to eat away at manual labor type jobs.
Click to expand...
I'll push back on this a little bit. The point of high school has never been job training, and I don't think it should be. The point of requiring education through high school is to develop kids as educated citizens of a society, not as workers. That's why the core subjects have always been some variety of math, science, English/literature, and history/civics. I have zero problem if high schools want to work in more job-focused options as electives for students. And they've always done that to an extent - shop class, home ec, etc. I think it would be fine to have a couple more classes in that regard, assuming you can find qualified instructors for them. But I don't think it's a good idea to add job training to the regular high school curriculum. Honestly if there's anything that you should consider adding to the basic high school curriculum, I would suggest basic financial literacy courses over anything job-related.

IMO the place where this sort of training is happening, and should be better advertised and utilized, is community college. I think many people think of community college generally as remedial college for people who couldn't get into a "real" college and that's not really accurate. Yes, they do (and should) have programs in more traditionally academic disciplines for kids who don't have the financial resources or grades to start at a 4-year college. But many of them offer tons of vocational training programs that result in both degrees and certificates, and often partner with employers to train for their specific needs. HVAC repair, electrical certifications, truck driving, operation and repair of advanced commercial machinery, commercial cooking, etc - these are just some of the things that most community colleges offer. These programs are generally very affordable, and through incentives could be made even more so. The trick is just erasing the stigma around "community college" that exists for many at the high school level and getting guidance counselors to advocate for it as an option. And of course, ensuring that state and local funding is significant enough to attract qualified instructors, build quality programs, and make it affordable enough for almost anyone to do.
 
rodoheel said:
I'll push back on this a little bit. The point of high school has never been job training, and I don't think it should be. The point of requiring education through high school is to develop kids as educated citizens of a society, not as workers. That's why the core subjects have always been some variety of math, science, English/literature, and history/civics. I have zero problem if high schools want to work in more job-focused options as electives for students. And they've always done that to an extent - shop class, home ec, etc. I think it would be fine to have a couple more classes in that regard, assuming you can find qualified instructors for them. But I don't think it's a good idea to add job training to the regular high school curriculum. Honestly if there's anything that you should consider adding to the basic high school curriculum, I would suggest basic financial literacy courses over anything job-related.

IMO the place where this sort of training is happening, and should be better advertised and utilized, is community college. I think many people think of community college generally as remedial college for people who couldn't get into a "real" college and that's not really accurate. Yes, they do (and should) have programs in more traditionally academic disciplines for kids who don't have the financial resources or grades to start at a 4-year college. But many of them offer tons of vocational training programs that result in both degrees and certificates, and often partner with employers to train for their specific needs. HVAC repair, electrical certifications, truck driving, operation and repair of advanced commercial machinery, commercial cooking, etc - these are just some of the things that most community colleges offer. These programs are generally very affordable, and through incentives could be made even more so. The trick is just erasing the stigma around "community college" that exists for many at the high school level and getting guidance counselors to advocate for it as an option. And of course, ensuring that state and local funding is significant enough to attract qualified instructors, build quality programs, and make it affordable enough for almost anyone to do.
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And what would be our plan for people who don't even go to community college?
 
IMHO—and before I say anything, let me be clear. I think feminism is a good thing. I think women having equal rights is a good thing. And I think women succeeding in places where men have traditionally ran things is a good thing.

We are living in a day and age where we are still figuring out the “equal” thing between men and women. The truth is that we were just born in a timeline where we haven’t figured it all out yet.
 
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