Travis and Taylor

HeelYeah2012 said:
If my sister was super happy/satisfied with her current life, you would have a point. I don’t ultimately care that much if my sister has children or not, but seeing Taylor Swift start a family would absolutely have a chance of influencing her overall viewpoint on what it means to start a family, be a mother, have a husband, etc.
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I want making a point. I was asking a question and you didn't answer my question. Do you want this influence because you believe that she needs to be influenced to have children because that's what you have decided will make her happier?
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
If my sister was super happy/satisfied with her current life, you would have a point. I don’t ultimately care that much if my sister has children or not, but seeing Taylor Swift start a family would absolutely have a chance of influencing her overall viewpoint on what it means to start a family, be a mother, have a husband, etc.
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One thing is clear... you don't think much of your sister.
 
wmheel1287 said:
I want making a point. I was asking a question and you didn't answer my question. Do you want this influence because you believe that she needs to be influenced to have children because that's what you have decided will make her happier?
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Yes, I believe she would be happier if she’s eventually married with kids (or even just married) vs. if she’s single for life. This isn’t unique to her, it’s universal and it’s timeless.
 
dukeman92 said:
One thing is clear... you don't think much of your sister.
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She’s somewhat estranged from my parents but not from me. She flies in to visit my family (me/wife/daughters) several times per year.

Her and my parents can coexist together for a short time, but if they are together for several days it’s only a matter of time before one of them can’t resist bringing up their well-established extreme differences in politics and then it gets explosive because none of them will give an inch.

I’m somewhat caught in the middle of it, but admittedly empathize more with my parents than with my sister when those arguments occur, because I believe my sister’s political opinions are absurd. She takes it way further than just mainstream political differences and goes to 100 with extreme feminism, men are bad, white people are oppressors, corporations are oppressors, America is a racist country, pro-Palestine, so on and so forth.

The difference between me and all of them is that I value having strong relationships with family more than I care about a political difference of opinion….no matter how extreme.

So all of this is a long way of saying, I actually do think highly of my sister overall. She’s very smart, talented, successful in her career….but frankly she entered UNC as a normal person and exited as a brainwashed liberal. Not just the Joe Biden type, but the Bernie Sanders/admitted socialist type.

Ask yourself this though, to bring this post back to the thread topic a little bit. Why exactly would my sister be so adamantly against Taylor Swift having children? Isn’t that just as strange as the rest of the family hoping (secretly, not like bugging her about it) that my sister eventually moderates on some of her positions, settles down, and has a happy family?

The answer is, she idolizes Swift to the point that Swift is all-consuming to her. In the same way religion is to some folks or that sports is to me. So she’s always put Swift up on this pedestal as someone who says “F the patriarchy, I’m focusing on my career, I’ll break up with tons of guys and write songs about them, I’m never getting married and never having kids. Oh and by the way, vote Democrat.” And now she’s watched Taylor fall for Travis Kelce, get engaged, and there’s starting to be chinks in the armor of this persona that my sister wants Swift to maintain.
 
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Ramrouser said:
Waay too pessimistic view of things. No question housing is expensive and we need to focus on building more entry housing. But your reality is not mine. Both of my children purchased their homes in their mid 20s. My son just closed on his 2nd home. 90% of their friends from HS and college own their own homes in places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, No. VA and many have already started families. I realize this might not be a completely representative sample of young people but still....
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From the favorite conservative network, Fox News:

"[The American Dream] is slightly changing as younger generations opt to rent or stay at home with their parents longer than ever before. It's a consequence of the affordability crisis that continues to persist in the housing market, according to real estate mogul and founder of The Agency, Mauricio Umansky.

"The younger generation is really not able to own homes," [Umansky] said. "Again, I'm using the word affordability, but it's a real affordability issue."

As of May, the typical U.S. household would need to spend 44.6% of their income to afford a median-priced home, according to recent data from Realtor.com. This is well above the recommended 30% threshold, highlighting how "affordability isn't just strained, it's nearly extinct," Realtor.com economists said in the recently published report.

From CNN:

"Americans are living through the toughest housing market in a generation and, for some young people, the quintessential dream of owning a home is slipping away.

Mortgage rates surged in recent years...While rates have come down slightly since then, home prices remain painfully elevated and a limited inventory of housing is still failing to keep up with demand. Such conditions mean that housing has become woefully unaffordable.

It’s still a cruddy time to be hunting for a home, but it’s even worse for young, first-time buyers who need to save up for a down payment and build up their credit score during a time when Baby Boomers are refusing to part with their big houses.

The situation isn’t a whole lot better for renters, with rents barely coming down from record highs and half of tenants in that market saying they can’t even afford their payments."

But yeah, everything is hunky-dory with young couples and housing and rents. No need for any pessimism at all.
 
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HeelYeah2012 said:
Yes, I believe she would be happier if she’s eventually married with kids (or even just married) vs. if she’s single for life. This isn’t unique to her, it’s universal and it’s timeless.
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So single women for life can't be happy, or as happy as married women? That's certainly an interesting, 1950s position to take. I've known married women with kids who are miserable and single women (and men) who are actually quite happy with their lives, or at least as happy as married couples I've seen.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
Correct, single people in general would not be as happy or have as fulfilling of a life as married people. Hardly a 1950s take.
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Based on my own personal observations I totally disagree with that statement. As I said above I've known married women who are miserable (including with kids) and single people who are quite happy with their lives. And yeah, arguing that a woman needs to be married to be happy and fulfilled is a pretty traditionalist (and simplistic) view of life, imo.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
Based on my own personal observations I totally disagree with that statement. As I said above I've known married women who are miserable (including with kids) and single people who are quite happy with their lives. And yeah, arguing that a woman needs to be married to be happy and fulfilled is a pretty traditionalist (and simplistic) view of life, imo.
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Never said a woman “has to” be married to be happy and fulfilled, just that it makes it more likely. Same goes for men.

My experience is, the single folks probably have more fun than the married folks in the 20s and maybe 30s. Highly doubt that’s true in the 60s and 70s when parents are likely dead, siblings have their own families, and you’re more dependent on having your own family (spouse, kids) or risk being really lonely.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
Never said a woman “has to” be married to be happy and fulfilled, just that it makes it more likely. Same goes for men.

My experience is, the single folks probably have more fun than the married folks in the 20s and maybe 30s. Highly doubt that’s true in the 60s and 70s when parents are likely dead, siblings have their own families, and you’re more dependent on having your own family (spouse, kids) or risk being really lonely.
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So your argument is still that most women ought to get married and have kids, because it's "more likely" that they'll be happier. And as I said I don't think that is true in many cases - it depends on the person, not on some old-fashioned view of how people should live their lives. And I've heard the old saw about older single and childless people being lonely and miserable, and that's not what I've usually seen either. In some cases married people with kids are happier, but a good many aren't. And my wife and I have frequently heard the horrified gasps of "who will take care of you when you're old?" when I've seen old folks whose adult kids shoved them into nursing or retirement homes and single elderly people who are still very involved in their church or community and have many friends who look after them. It depends on the person, not on a generic formula or lifestyle.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
Ask yourself this though, to bring this post back to the thread topic a little bit. Why exactly would my sister be so adamantly against Taylor Swift having children? Isn’t that just as strange as the rest of the family hoping (secretly, not like bugging her about it) that my sister eventually moderates on some of her positions, settles down, and has a happy family?

The answer is, she idolizes Swift to the point that Swift is all-consuming to her. In the same way religion is to some folks or that sports is to me. So she’s always put Swift up on this pedestal as someone who says “F the patriarchy, I’m focusing on my career, I’ll break up with tons of guys and write songs about them, I’m never getting married and never having kids. Oh and by the way, vote Democrat.” And now she’s watched Taylor fall for Travis Kelce, get engaged, and there’s starting to be chinks in the armor of this persona that my sister wants Swift to maintain.
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this is a laughable caricature. i may not know your sister, but i know a bunch of socialist Swifties, and not a one of them sees her like this. they don't see the men in taylor's oeuvre as disposable vehicles for songwriting; the whole point of her appeal is how deeply felt those songs seem and how hard the lessons about being with the wrong person are to learn. she has always put forth the image of somebody who wants a classic romantic story, just on her terms.

and any one of them will tell you that she has been, for the vast majority of her career, distressingly quiet on electoral politics, right up until, basically, this latest election - even as white nationalist groups online were calling her their "Aryan princess" nearly a decade ago.

if your sister doesn't want her to have kids, i'd suggest that the reason is much simpler than you're making it out to be - being a mom and having kids would likely greatly slow down her music production/touring schedule, giving the fandom less new material to fan about. i suspect you'd have a similar reaction to your favorite pro sports league locking out for a year because of a contract dispute - i wouldn't immediately assume you were against athletes getting what they deserved just because you were upset at the prospect of not getting to watch that sport for a year.
 
Mulberry Heel said:
So your argument is still that most women ought to get married and have kids, because it's "more likely" that they'll be happier. And as I said I don't think that is true in many cases - it depends on the person, not on some old-fashioned view of how people should live their lives. And I've heard the old saw about older single and childless people being lonely and miserable, and that's not what I've usually seen either. In some cases married people with kids are happier, but a good many aren't. And my wife and I have frequently heard the horrified gasps of "who will take care of you when you're old?" when I've seen old folks whose adult kids shoved them into nursing or retirement homes and single elderly people who are still very involved in their church or community and have many friends who look after them. It depends on the person, not on a generic formula or lifestyle.
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Simple as this: I’m talking rules and you’re pointing out that exceptions exist. Duh. Of course they do.
 
akillesheel said:
this is a laughable caricature. i may not know your sister, but i know a bunch of socialist Swifties, and not a one of them sees her like this. they don't see the men in taylor's oeuvre as disposable vehicles for songwriting; the whole point of her appeal is how deeply felt those songs seem and how hard the lessons about being with the wrong person are to learn. she has always put forth the image of somebody who wants a classic romantic story, just on her terms.

and any one of them will tell you that she has been, for the vast majority of her career, distressingly quiet on electoral politics, right up until, basically, this latest election - even as white nationalist groups online were calling her their "Aryan princess" nearly a decade ago.

if your sister doesn't want her to have kids, i'd suggest that the reason is much simpler than you're making it out to be - being a mom and having kids would likely greatly slow down her music production/touring schedule, giving the fandom less new material to fan about. i suspect you'd have a similar reaction to your favorite pro sports league locking out for a year because of a contract dispute - i wouldn't immediately assume you were against athletes getting what they deserved just because you were upset at the prospect of not getting to watch that sport for a year.
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I’m sure there are plenty of Swifties who would say they don’t want her to have kids for the innocent reason you stated: it would slow down her music. I can guarantee you that’s not where my sister is coming from. She wouldn’t even deny it that it has to do with “the patriarchy” and not wanting Taylor Swift to succumb to it.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
Simple as this: I’m talking rules and you’re pointing out that exceptions exist. Duh. Of course they do.
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No, what I'm telling you is that there are no "rules" in life except those that others try to impose on you or what you limit yourself to. Getting married or having kids isn't more likely to make you happy - I've seen far too many dysfunctional families and unhappy kids to ever believe that's true. I've heard people say that they got married or had kids because "that's the thing to do" or that's what everyone around them did, and it hasn't made them happy. What's that great scene in Tombstone - Wyatt Earp says "I just wanted to have a normal life" and Doc tells him "there's no such thing as a normal life, there's just life." And that's true. What worked for you shouldn't be the "rule" for anyone else.
 
HeelYeah2012 said:
Correct, single people in general would not be as happy or have as fulfilling of a life as married people. Hardly a 1950s take.
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This is why conservatives suck. What makes you happy, doesn't make everyone happy. And people should be free to live their lives as they see fit.
 
dukeman92 said:
This is why conservatives suck. What makes you happy, doesn't make everyone happy. And people should be free to live their lives as they see fit.
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it’s this facile black and white thinking extrapolated out to everyone with 100% self confidence and hubris that gets me. And it’s like this on every fucking topic
 
uncjhodges said:
it’s this facile black and white thinking extrapolated out to everyone with 100% self confidence and hubris that gets me. And it’s like this on every fucking topic
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Read the sentence again. Quote: “Correct, single people in general would not be as happy or have as fulfilling of a life as married people.”

Does “in general” mean black and white and extrapolated to everyone? Or does it mean the exact opposite?

Let’s use a different example. “Growing up in a two parent household, in general, means a child is more likely to succeed in school”. When you read that sentence do you take it to mean that it’s black and white and is always true 100% of the time? Or does it simply state what the general rule is?
 
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HeelYeah2012 said:
Read the sentence again. Quote: “Correct, single people in general would not be as happy or have as fulfilling of a life as married people.”

Does “in general” mean black and white and extrapolated to everyone? Or does it mean the exact opposite?
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I would suggest editing your sentence by placing "happily" between "as" and "married" assuming you don't agree with JD Vance's contention that one should not end a marriage just because they are unhappy or being abused.
 
Perhaps interesting that Love Story or Paper Rings didn't get the immediate streaming increase that instead went to So High School (I have daughters).
 
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