Trump Addresses The Nation

Callatoroy said:
You are getting side tracked into a single issue of individual journalists or network vs another. Ask yourself why you felt compelled to make the comment about Fox because I have offered no defense of fox and have characterized it as no better. It seemingly was a reflexive and defensive comment rooted in a "team" mentality. My comments are intended to talk about news media as a whole. I even stated that. I have no desire to debate those two vs any other individuals. Do you not think it messed up that we have news sources that cater to the left and right? Shouldn't news be fact based and politically neutral? If it does cater one way or another, don't you think that news presentation is manipulated to appeal to one side or the other? How do they manipulate it, and thus the population? Do you not believe that plays a huge part in creating division? The media has not only been able to create a "team" environment of democrat vs. republican, but has also has us arguing in a "team" manner about the sources of news. That is extremely harmful to the country, but very profitable for the media. Also, please don't take any of that personally as I'm not trying to criticize you in any way. I was the biggest "team" homer of them all and it would be very hypocritical of me to not acknowledge how I played in that arena.
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no worries...

I did not take your posts personally. I was only taking issue with your contention that liberal political opinion shows addressing the political events of the day are just the same as conservative political opinion shows.

I'm old enough to remember when Walter Cronkite, Chet Huntley and David Brinkley reported the factually based politically neutral news. That was a time when there was consensus in America what was factual reality.

Unfortunately, I also remember even back then that many conservatives whined that those factually based politically neutral news shows were too liberal and biased.

It was a case of the facts having a liberal bias back then just as it is today.

I appreciate the discussion, and I appreciate you sticking with the board to offer a thoughtful conservative perspective.
 
Callatoroy said:
I wasn't aware I gave an indictment of msnbc.
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C

Politics Post in thread 'Trump Addresses The Nation'

heelinhell said:
I watch Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes every night. Not once have I seen them being factually misleading or peddling false narratives so I have to respectfully call you out.
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Nicolle Wallace
  • Apology for Inaccurate Statement: In August 2019, Wallace issued an apology for mistakenly stating on her show that President Donald Trump was "talking about exterminating Latinos." She corrected her statement, clarifying it was an unintentional error, but maintained that Trump's language regarding immigration was intentional and constant.
  • Russiagate Coverage: Media critics...
  • Like
 
Callatoroy said:
OK, your questions provide some nuance. No policy is likely to be a slam dunk with no downside. I would be interested in where you disagree with my views and why.

Immigration: This will give you some idea of my general opinions on immigration. Obviously it is very general and doesn't address all immigration variables.

1. I 100% support closing the border, full stop. I believe to my core that we are not a nation without borders and I believe most of the countries in the world believe that too. Just look how restrictive other country's immigration requirements are compared to the US (in general)

2. I fully support deportation for any and all illegal aliens. Whether that means self deportation or assisted deportation, I'm against any immigration that doesn't follow the laws of the country and doesn't allow for vetting who comes in.

3. Where I fault and disagree with trump and his posse is in the execution of the deportations. I believe (in general) most of them could be done in a humane way and with a degree of compassion. However, I question the media's portrayal of the deportations as I believe there are far more circumstances and context to what is happening than what the media is providing (remember it was reported the border patrol agents were whipping people crossing the river when in fact they weren't). That doesn't mean that I believe there is no abuse taking place hence my comment about being done in a humane way.

4. Every person coming in has to be vetted. We need skilled and unskilled labor. Maybe we do it now, but some type of analysis needs to be done yearly that identifies the quantity and type of migrant labor needed. Employers who violate or try to circumvent OSHA laws or any type of employment laws, or any laws designed to prevent exploitation should face severe penalties.

5. I don't believe non citizens should receive any type of g'ment benefits that require citizenship or green card type status. Citizenship matters.

6. I believe our immigration laws are broken and need to be modernized. The path to citizenship should be made to take less time and should cost significantly less to obtain. I believe very strongly citizenship should be merit based and require some degree of assimilation, including the ability to speak english. I also believe there needs to be stronger penalties in place for people who violate the immigration laws. In other words, strong enough to deter repeat offenders. I have friends with job skills that have been trying to obtain citizenship for 8 yrs and have paid out thousands in legal fees. As such, I'm very much opposed to those who came illegally gaining any type of preference or advantage over them if they are here illegally.

7. I don't believe in trump's manner of changing birthright citizenship. I do think it needs to change but done so according to the law. The SC's ruling on the constitutionality of trump's EO will be interesting.
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I appreciate your thoughtful response. We agree that non-citizens should not receive the same benefits as citizens and legal residents, and I believe that is largely the case now.

We also agree that reformation of the path to citizenship and vetting of people coming into our country is needed.

Where we disagree is on the term open borders, which is an invented term by conservative media. I have never heard a politician, no matter how progressive, ever advocating for open borders.

We also disagree that Republicans are the party enforcing deportations. I've seen data that shows that both Biden and Obama deported at the same rate as Trump, just without the cruelty and promotion.

I have been extremely troubled by the start of this administration. Unfortunately, it was entirely predictable. I just hope we'll have free and fair elections moving forward.
 
bridgetender said:
I appreciate your thoughtful response. We agree that non-citizens should not receive the same benefits as citizens and legal residents, and I believe that is largely the case now.

We also agree that reformation of the path to citizenship and vetting of people coming into our country is needed.

Where we disagree is on the term open borders, which is an invented term by conservative media. I have never heard a politician, no matter how progressive, ever advocating for open borders.

We also disagree that Republicans are the party enforcing deportations. I've seen data that shows that both Biden and Obama deported at the same rate as Trump, just without the cruelty and promotion.

I have been extremely troubled by the start of this administration. Unfortunately, it was entirely predictable. I just hope we'll have free and fair elections moving forward.
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Other than some very basic restriction, we had open borders for the first 110 years. This doesn't mean I want to go back to then but the history of our immigration laws are mostly loathsome and racist so there's nothing ,imo, that's not worth reconsidering. I'd even include some limited asylum for felons until such time as they are proven felons by our laws. There are several other things to consider. I feel like we'd need some seriously mitigating circumstances to admit someone unsponsored and unlikely to be able to support themselves.
 
bridgetender said:
I appreciate your thoughtful response. We agree that non-citizens should not receive the same benefits as citizens and legal residents, and I believe that is largely the case now.

We also agree that reformation of the path to citizenship and vetting of people coming into our country is needed.

Where we disagree is on the term open borders, which is an invented term by conservative media. I have never heard a politician, no matter how progressive, ever advocating for open borders.

We also disagree that Republicans are the party enforcing deportations. I've seen data that shows that both Biden and Obama deported at the same rate as Trump, just without the cruelty and promotion.

I have been extremely troubled by the start of this administration. Unfortunately, it was entirely predictable. I just hope we'll have free and fair elections moving forward.
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It isn’t just deportations that matter. If you allow millions to come in you can deport a lot and still be going backwards. Deportations alone don’t tell the whole story
 
Callatoroy said:
It isn’t just deportations that matter. If you allow millions to come in you can deport a lot and still be going backwards. Deportations alone don’t tell the whole story
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define "backwards," because without context, we're veering awful close to Great Replacement, actual Nazi-style talk.
 
Callatoroy said:
OK, your questions provide some nuance. No policy is likely to be a slam dunk with no downside. I would be interested in where you disagree with my views and why.

Immigration: This will give you some idea of my general opinions on immigration. Obviously it is very general and doesn't address all immigration variables.

1. I 100% support closing the border, full stop. I believe to my core that we are not a nation without borders and I believe most of the countries in the world believe that too. Just look how restrictive other country's immigration requirements are compared to the US (in general)

2. I fully support deportation for any and all illegal aliens. Whether that means self deportation or assisted deportation, I'm against any immigration that doesn't follow the laws of the country and doesn't allow for vetting who comes in.

3. Where I fault and disagree with trump and his posse is in the execution of the deportations. I believe (in general) most of them could be done in a humane way and with a degree of compassion. However, I question the media's portrayal of the deportations as I believe there are far more circumstances and context to what is happening than what the media is providing (remember it was reported the border patrol agents were whipping people crossing the river when in fact they weren't). That doesn't mean that I believe there is no abuse taking place hence my comment about being done in a humane way.

4. Every person coming in has to be vetted. We need skilled and unskilled labor. Maybe we do it now, but some type of analysis needs to be done yearly that identifies the quantity and type of migrant labor needed. Employers who violate or try to circumvent OSHA laws or any type of employment laws, or any laws designed to prevent exploitation should face severe penalties.

5. I don't believe non citizens should receive any type of g'ment benefits that require citizenship or green card type status. Citizenship matters.

6. I believe our immigration laws are broken and need to be modernized. The path to citizenship should be made to take less time and should cost significantly less to obtain. I believe very strongly citizenship should be merit based and require some degree of assimilation, including the ability to speak english. I also believe there needs to be stronger penalties in place for people who violate the immigration laws. In other words, strong enough to deter repeat offenders. I have friends with job skills that have been trying to obtain citizenship for 8 yrs and have paid out thousands in legal fees. As such, I'm very much opposed to those who came illegally gaining any type of preference or advantage over them if they are here illegally.

7. I don't believe in trump's manner of changing birthright citizenship. I do think it needs to change but done so according to the law. The SC's ruling on the constitutionality of trump's EO will be interesting.
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I agree we need policies and that immigrants should be vetted to live here and become citizens.

The problem is this administration has done nothing to improve policy, instead they have lowered the requirements to be hired by ICE while doubling the head count. I've read that over 200 Citizens have been arrested. Also, them going after immigrants who are doing exactly what our laws ask them to do is wrong also. Additionally, due to the ICE pussies having to hide their faces, I've read that women have been raped by predators posing as ICE agents.

This is just wrong.

As for overall politics I've always questioned both parties, it's clear that everyone in politics has some power or riches motivation. We just have to hope that the ones elected at least don't let us peasants starve.

Hopefully starting next year, we will have candidates, from both sides, that are willing to actual do the damn job and work together on important issues like closing the wage and wealth gaps, health care, retirement, the debt, the deficit, installing actual guard rails to protect our systems, etc.

The speak English thing is actually funny, considering how many other countries actually teach their citizens to speak English. Most of which speak it very well. The US is a language snob, we don't do a great job teaching our citizens any other language and we travel and rely on other countries to speak English. Then we find it so important that immigrants speak English.

I'm having my basement finished, of the more than 20 contractors that have worked on my basement, 2 have been white Americans, but all speak English very well, as well as other languages, while I struggle with the one...
 
akillesheel said:
define "backwards," because without context, we're veering awful close to Great Replacement, actual Nazi-style talk.
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Net growth in illegal immigration. Let in 1,000,000 and deport 300,000 you had a net 700,000 in illegal immigrants. One argument the left makes (in general) is that Biden deported as many as trump. That is very misleading. It might be semantically true but without context is misleading.
 
Callatoroy said:
It isn’t just deportations that matter. If you allow millions to come in you can deport a lot and still be going backwards. Deportations alone don’t tell the whole story
Click to expand...
Interesting that from what I've read the deportations under Obama were still higher than Trump in the same period of time, yet Obama didn't have to lower the education requirements to be employed by ICE or double the number of ICE employees. I know there were some questions regarding treating everyone humanely, but nothing compared to this administration.

What we need is good policy, that addresses the clear need for immigrants in the work force as well as any concerns for American citizens, well other than getting beat out for a job, that's the individual's responsibility.
 
Callatoroy said:
Net growth in illegal immigration. Let in 1,000,000 and deport 300,000 you had a net 700,000 in illegal immigrants. One argument the left makes (in general) is that Biden deported as many as trump. That is very misleading. It might be semantically true but without context is misleading.
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It's also misleading that the right claims there were open boarders and that is what the left wants. The left wants good policy.

I don't see anyone currently working on any policy. Hopefully that changes in the future.


Hope you, and everyone else here, have a great holiday.
 
Callatoroy said:
Net growth in illegal immigration. Let in 1,000,000 and deport 300,000 you had a net 700,000 in illegal immigrants. One argument the left makes (in general) is that Biden deported as many as trump. That is very misleading. It might be semantically true but without context is misleading.
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yeah aside from the completely made up numbers, i'm still not getting how that's "backwards." maybe you don't realize what you're saying, but if adding people from other countries is the united states going "backwards," it is hard to imagine what "forwards" would be other than a white ethnostate.
 
bridgetender said:
I appreciate your thoughtful response. We agree that non-citizens should not receive the same benefits as citizens and legal residents, and I believe that is largely the case now.

We also agree that reformation of the path to citizenship and vetting of people coming into our country is needed.

Where we disagree is on the term open borders, which is an invented term by conservative media. I have never heard a politician, no matter how progressive, ever advocating for open borders.

We also disagree that Republicans are the party enforcing deportations. I've seen data that shows that both Biden and Obama deported at the same rate as Trump, just without the cruelty and promotion.

I have been extremely troubled by the start of this administration. Unfortunately, it was entirely predictable. I just hope we'll have free and fair elections moving forward.
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Thank you bridgetender !

Your post is a thoughtful response to Calla's thoughtful response .

I would just add regarding immigration reform, the Senate passed a bill in 2013 with strong bipartisan support (68-32) on June 27, 2013, creating a pathway to citizenship, enhancing border security, and modernizing the legal immigration system, but it died in the House of Representatives, where House Republican leaders wouldn't bring it to a vote because they knew it would pass....and President Obama would sign it into law.

The GQP doesn't want to solve the issues surrounding immigration because they depend upon immigration as a political cudgel to whip up fears that brown people are invading our country to rape and murder the real Americans.

Sad to say that strategy worked in the last election...
 
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Callatoroy said:
OK, your questions provide some nuance. No policy is likely to be a slam dunk with no downside. I would be interested in where you disagree with my views and why.

Immigration: This will give you some idea of my general opinions on immigration. Obviously it is very general and doesn't address all immigration variables.

1. I 100% support closing the border, full stop. I believe to my core that we are not a nation without borders and I believe most of the countries in the world believe that too. Just look how restrictive other country's immigration requirements are compared to the US (in general)

2. I fully support deportation for any and all illegal aliens. Whether that means self deportation or assisted deportation, I'm against any immigration that doesn't follow the laws of the country and doesn't allow for vetting who comes in.

3. Where I fault and disagree with trump and his posse is in the execution of the deportations. I believe (in general) most of them could be done in a humane way and with a degree of compassion. However, I question the media's portrayal of the deportations as I believe there are far more circumstances and context to what is happening than what the media is providing (remember it was reported the border patrol agents were whipping people crossing the river when in fact they weren't). That doesn't mean that I believe there is no abuse taking place hence my comment about being done in a humane way.

4. Every person coming in has to be vetted. We need skilled and unskilled labor. Maybe we do it now, but some type of analysis needs to be done yearly that identifies the quantity and type of migrant labor needed. Employers who violate or try to circumvent OSHA laws or any type of employment laws, or any laws designed to prevent exploitation should face severe penalties.

5. I don't believe non citizens should receive any type of g'ment benefits that require citizenship or green card type status. Citizenship matters.

6. I believe our immigration laws are broken and need to be modernized. The path to citizenship should be made to take less time and should cost significantly less to obtain. I believe very strongly citizenship should be merit based and require some degree of assimilation, including the ability to speak english. I also believe there needs to be stronger penalties in place for people who violate the immigration laws. In other words, strong enough to deter repeat offenders. I have friends with job skills that have been trying to obtain citizenship for 8 yrs and have paid out thousands in legal fees. As such, I'm very much opposed to those who came illegally gaining any type of preference or advantage over them if they are here illegally.

7. I don't believe in trump's manner of changing birthright citizenship. I do think it needs to change but done so according to the law. The SC's ruling on the constitutionality of trump's EO will be interesting.
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If you google “what was Kamala Harris’ immigration plan,” it reads remarkably similar to what you wrote.
That really shouldn’t be a surprise, because what you want is remarkably similar to what most Americans want.
But then you voted for the guy who wanted something very different.
 
ChileG said:
If you google “what was Kamala Harris’ immigration plan,” it reads remarkably similar to what you wrote.
That really shouldn’t be a surprise, because what you want is remarkably similar to what most Americans want.
But then you voted for the guy who wanted something very different.
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Thanks. I did read it. Disagree that it is similar to what I wrote.
 
akillesheel said:
yeah aside from the completely made up numbers, i'm still not getting how that's "backwards." maybe you don't realize what you're saying, but if adding people from other countries is the united states going "backwards," it is hard to imagine what "forwards" would be other than a white ethnostate.
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Im in favor of reducing the total number of illegal immigrants in the country. Not just deportation numbers.

Just adding people is going backwards. Strategically adding people is going forwards. Race has nothing to do with it. It’s a balance of skilled and unskilled based off of the country’s needs.
 
UNCatTech said:
I agree we need policies and that immigrants should be vetted to live here and become citizens.

The problem is this administration has done nothing to improve policy, instead they have lowered the requirements to be hired by ICE while doubling the head count. I've read that over 200 Citizens have been arrested. Also, them going after immigrants who are doing exactly what our laws ask them to do is wrong also. Additionally, due to the ICE pussies having to hide their faces, I've read that women have been raped by predators posing as ICE agents.

This is just wrong.

As for overall politics I've always questioned both parties, it's clear that everyone in politics has some power or riches motivation. We just have to hope that the ones elected at least don't let us peasants starve.

Hopefully starting next year, we will have candidates, from both sides, that are willing to actual do the damn job and work together on important issues like closing the wage and wealth gaps, health care, retirement, the debt, the deficit, installing actual guard rails to protect our systems, etc.

The speak English thing is actually funny, considering how many other countries actually teach their citizens to speak English. Most of which speak it very well. The US is a language snob, we don't do a great job teaching our citizens any other language and we travel and rely on other countries to speak English. Then we find it so important that immigrants speak English.

I'm having my basement finished, of the more than 20 contractors that have worked on my basement, 2 have been white Americans, but all speak English very well, as well as other languages, while I struggle with the one...
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Agree with you that we do a poor job with teaching other languages in this country. One of our exchange students from Tunisia spoke 5 languages fluently. When unskilled labor comes here and doesn’t speak English it makes it far easier for them to be taken advantage of and exploited. I have seen it happen. People who come here and don’t speak it are at such a huge disadvantage.
 
UNCatTech said:
Interesting that from what I've read the deportations under Obama were still higher than Trump in the same period of time, yet Obama didn't have to lower the education requirements to be employed by ICE or double the number of ICE employees. I know there were some questions regarding treating everyone humanely, but nothing compared to this administration.

What we need is good policy, that addresses the clear need for immigrants in the work force as well as any concerns for American citizens, well other than getting beat out for a job, that's the individual's responsibility.
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Don’t know the exact numbers but Obama had a higher number of illegal entries so not illogical to think his deportations might be higher. He also wasn’t trying to deport millions of illegals that were let in under previous administrations which requires many additional agents. Deportations alone don’t provide an accurate story of immigration policy enforcement. Completely agree on the need for good policy.
 
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