Trump47 First Week & Beyond Catch-All

[ZZLPHeels]

Putting aside the fact that military personnel were among the lowest risk for serious covid issues, you don't think there was any reason for concern about the vaccine? Other drug approvals take a decade or more, which allows for some view into possible long-term side effects. That wasn't the case with the Covid vaccine. There's also the reality that the mRNA delivery system had never been used in anything remotely close to the scale as it was being used for the Covid vaccine.

I ask that as someone who got the vaccine and one booster.

Nope, and time has shown that there was no reason for concern about the vaccine. Of course there are side effects with any vaccine or any medical treatment, but the cost-benefit analysis of getting the COVID vaccines into as many arms as possible was sound and saved many, many lives. Military COVID deaths essentially went to zero after the mandate was implemented.

 

[ZenMode]

Nope, and time has shown that there was no reason for concern about the vaccine. Of course there are side effects with any vaccine or any medical treatment, but the cost-benefit analysis of getting the COVID vaccines into as many arms as possible was sound and saved many, many lives. Military COVID deaths essentially went to zero after the mandate was implemented.

We are only a few years out from widespread use of mRNA vaccines delivery which, as far as I know, had never been used in humans other than a few one-off situations.

The few years since Covid is not long enough to label as "long term". The FDA approval process normally takes about a decade. That time allows for a much better "long term" view.

 

[Enigma94]

We are only a few years out from widespread use of mRNA vaccines delivery which, as far as I know, had never been used in humans other than a few one-off situations. The few years since Covid is not long enough to label as "long term".

Let me guess - you were against lockdowns too right?

 

[finesse]

Let me guess - you were against lockdowns too right?

I think that depends on what the other side is arguing.

 

[ZenMode]

Let me guess - you were against lockdowns too right?

Not in principle. I think they were absolutely warranted in some situations and misused in other situations.

 

[ZZLPHeels]

We are only a few years out from widespread use of mRNA vaccines delivery which, as far as I know, had never been used in humans other than a few one-off situations.

The few years since Covid is not long enough to label as "long term". The FDA approval process normally takes about a decade. That time allows for a much better "long term" view.

You don't have the benefit of waiting a decade when you are in the middle of a pandemic that is killing and incapacitating millions.

 

[Enigma94]

Not in principle. I think they were absolutely warranted in some situations and misused in other situations.

Yes I forgot, you knew everything in advance and exactly how to deploy lockdowns perfectly. The bottom line is our only defense against Covid was limiting interactions while getting people immunity. So the choice is to enforce longer and more strict lockdowns or use the vaccine to bolster immunity quickly. The idea we could just exempt portions of society from lockdowns and vaccines is fantasyland.

 

[Carolina Fever]

Not in principle. I think they were absolutely warranted in some situations and misused in other situations.

Dude is on the fence and noncommitted to everything.

 

[ZenMode]

You don't have the benefit of waiting a decade when you are in the middle of a pandemic that is killing and incapacitating millions.

There's more than one way to get to herd immunity. Vaccines are only one of them.

The point is that the mRNA vaccines had never been used in humans to any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So, while politics most definitely played role, and the people resistant to the vaccine were probably horribly misinformed, there is some legitimate reason for concern.

Given the relatively small number, I think there could have been other steps taken besides kicking them out of the military.

 

[ChileG]

There's more than one way to get to herd immunity. Vaccines are only one of them.

The point is that the mRNA vaccines had never been used in humans to any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So, while politics most definitely played role, and the people resistant to the vaccine were probably horribly misinformed, there is some reason for legitimate concern.

Given the relatively small number, I think there could have been other steps taken besides kicking them out of the military.

It’s interesting. All of the experts on the subject said at the time and are saying today they knew/know the long term effects (none) of the mRNA vaccine.
Where are you getting your information from that we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine? Are you just relying on your own feelings?

 

[lawtig02]

There's more than one way to get to herd immunity. Vaccines are only one of them.

The point is that the mRNA vaccines had never been used in humans to any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So, while politics most definitely played role, and the people resistant to the vaccine were probably horribly misinformed, there is some reason for legitimate concern.

Given the relatively small number, I think there could have been other steps taken besides kicking them out of the military.

There's more than one way to drive the Japanese out of the Pacific. The Island Campaign is only one of them.

The point is that US soldiers/Marines have never hopped from Pacific island to Pacific island in any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So while politics most definitely played a role, and the people resistant to the Island Campaign were probably horribly misinformed, there is some reason for legitimate concern.

Given the relatively small numbers, I think there could have been other steps for the soldiers/Marines who refused to step off the boat, besides kicking them out of the military.

 

[ZenMode]

There's more than one way to drive the Japanese out of the Pacific. The Island Campaign is only one of them.

The point is that US soldiers/Marines have never hopped from Pacific island to Pacific island in any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So while politics most definitely played a role, and the people resistant to the Island Campaign were probably horribly misinformed, there is some reason for legitimate concern.

Given the relatively small numbers, I think there could have been other steps for the soldiers/Marines who refused to step off the boat, besides kicking them out of the military.

As I said earlier, this isn't a wartime issue. Refusing orders when in battle is significantly different that not wanting to get a vaccine shot.

 

[lawtig02]

As I said earlier, this isn't a wartime issue. Refusing orders when in battle is significantly different that not wanting to get a vaccine shot.

Why?

 

[ZZLPHeels]

There's more than one way to get to herd immunity. Vaccines are only one of them.

The point is that the mRNA vaccines had never been used in humans to any meaningful degree. Not only is there some risk in that, but there was also no long term information.

So, while politics most definitely played role, and the people resistant to the vaccine were probably horribly misinformed, there is some legitimate reason for concern.

Given the relatively small number, I think there could have been other steps taken besides kicking them out of the military.

Vaccines are the best way to get to herd immunity. Simply letting COVID run its course would have wrecked society. Healthcare was at its breaking point before the vaccines came out. Even after the vaccines came out, the willfully unvaccinated continued to put a tremendous strain on the system when they were diagnosed with COVID, went to the hospital to seek those evil doctors for treatment, and inevitably died a slow, painful, lonely and very, very expensive death.

Soldiers that do not follow lawful orders do not belong in the military.

 

[uncjhodges]

1. I believe that they could initially comply with the order with the JnJ vaccine- which is not mrna
2. how would a mrna vaccine have long term effects (outside of immunity)? Please answer this without sounding like a crazy person

 

[rodoheel]

We are only a few years out from widespread use of mRNA vaccines delivery which, as far as I know, had never been used in humans other than a few one-off situations.

The few years since Covid is not long enough to label as "long term". The FDA approval process normally takes about a decade. That time allows for a much better "long term" view.

Just curious - do you have any background in public health? Do you care what the people with long experience and expertise in public health think about the issue?

 

[lawtig02]

Just curious - do you have any background in public health? Do you care what the people with long experience and expertise in public health think about the issue?

Zen knows everything about literally everything. He's a vampire. When you've lived for 4,000 years, you can master pretty much everything. So he's never talking out his ass about anything he posts here.

 

[Healing]

Just curious - do you have any background in public health? Do you care what the people with long experience and expertise in public health think about the issue?

Our entire society has been taken over by insecurity, narcissism, magical thinking, and Dunning-Kruger. The GQP has given every arrogant asshole and dipshit license to believe their opinions exist in concert with experts.

Honestly, the “Find Out” phase is accelerating far … FAR, faster than I anticipated.

 

[ZenMode]

Vaccines are the best way to get to herd immunity. Simply letting COVID run its course would have wrecked society. Healthcare was at its breaking point before the vaccines came out. Even after the vaccines came out, the willfully unvaccinated continued to put a tremendous strain on the system when they were diagnosed with COVID, went to the hospital to seek those evil doctors for treatment, and inevitably died a slow, painful, lonely and very, very expensive death.

Soldiers that do not follow lawful orders do not belong in the military.

I'm not disputing the usefulness of the vaccines. I was more than happy to get vaccinated. I'm saying that I think there could have been other ways to handle the situation besides kicking the people out.

I'm sure politics played a role in resisting the vaccine and I feel pretty safe in saying that politics played a role in pushing the vaccine - Biden tried to use OSHA to force ~ 80 million Americans to get the vaccine. I found that to be a horrible attempted overreach of federal power and even worse than the few thousand military personnel refusing to be vaccinated.

 

[lawtig02]

I'm not disputing the usefulness of the vaccines. I'm saying that I think there could have been other ways to handle the situation besides kicking the people out.

I'm sure politics played a role in resisting the vaccine and I feel pretty safe in saying that politics played a role in pushing the vaccine - Biden tried to use OSHA to force ~ 80 million Americans to get the vaccine. I found that to be a horrible attempted overreach of federal power.

I'm sure politics played a role in resisting the Island Campaign and I feel pretty safe in saying that politics played a role in pushing the Island Campaign -- FDR tried to use the full power of the federal government to force hundreds of thousands of Americans to fight in the Pacific.

Zen, was that also a horrible attempted overreach of federal power?