Ukraine War | Zelensky seeks NATO guarantees for unoccupied Ukraine for peace

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Batt Boy said:
old conspiracy man Flynn, who was a known foreign agent, heavy user of Russian hookers, plea bargaining Russian asset, Alex Jones supporter, flat earther, anti-vaxer. What a fella.
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Wait. Flynn thinks the Earth is flat? Really or just rhetorically?
 
Calheel said:
Wait. Flynn thinks the Earth is flat? Really or just rhetorically?
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I think its rhetorical. Most of the post is. I don't think there's much to the foreign agent, Russian hookers or flat earth stuff. Anti-Vax is kind of a lie down with dogs and get fleas type of thing. But Alex Jones supporting conspiracy theorist? Oh yes. Dude went from a very well respected general to a conspiracy loon in pretty short order and then Trump decided to bring him into the cabinet and then kick him to the curb a month later.
 
Callatoroy said:
After reading this I honestly don't know where I fall on this latest escalation by Biden.


Its trump's nature to want to broker a deal because he isn't a war monger and more likely his ego will push him to take the chamberlain approach of ceding some territory because he boasted of ending the war and he wants to look like the hero.

I am questioning biden's motivation or rationale given his 2 month window. Why do it now?
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Fuck over Trump the same way Trump fucked over Biden with the Afghanistan withdrawal deal.
 
UNCBAdookJD said:
Fuck over Trump the same way Trump fucked over Biden with the Afghanistan withdrawal deal.
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Not sure I see that. The guy in charge is the guy in charge. He can and should audible at the line of scrimmage if he feels its necessary. That said, how do you think this fucks over trump?
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Why do it now? As opposed to 6 months ago? Because doing it before the election would likely have played into Trump’s hands. If you mean why not do it as soon as the polls closed on Election Day, I think that’s a fair question. Why do it at all is a no-brainer. Because Trump has campaigned on “ending” the conflict and undermining NATO. That’s unacceptable to anyone who isn’t a Russian stooge. Even if Trump is insistent on bending the knee, he would be in a stronger position with Ukraine already have been given more leeway in its own defense.
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I'm fairly confident that trump will broker a deal that cedes some territory to russia. Biden escalating doesn't change that. If anything it makes trump look more statesmanlike as he pulled the world back from the brink. Biden doing this doesn't add anything but 2 months of increased chaos. Nothing lasting.

I'm not sure trump's approach does anything but kick the can down the road unless there are severe repercussions for a future invasion and I don't think putin is really worried about that. But again, what does biden gain? Moreover, It sure seems like zelensky wants to get a deal done. He seems excited to see trump coming down the road and I'm sure putin would like to get out with something he could claim as a win to bide time until his next attempt.
 
CFordUNC said:
Because it should have been done 18+ months ago. It was always, IMO, a policy failure to restrict Ukraine from striking into Russian territory. It never made sense that it was fine for Russia to target and massacre civilians but Ukraine was supposed to not retaliate in kind. If we didn't want them to use our weaponry a certain way, then we shouldn't have provided it.

One of the primary reasons that I no longer identify with the Republican Party is because its led by someone who has convinced the Republican base that we should make concessions to foreign thugs like Putin, and that by ceding sovereign Ukrainian territory, we are "making the best deals". Russia is not entitled to one square fucking inch of Ukrainian territory. Not one square inch. Every single person in Moscow should be dead before Ukraine is forced to cede a square inch of their country. The Republican Party used to be able to be counted upon to tell Russia to fuck all the way off. Now, the GOP grovels at the feet of an authoritarian tyrant who would turn the entirety of the United States into a grease stain on the map if he could get away with it.
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So the entire war has been conducted under biden's watch but its the gop that's at fault here. Ok, makes sense. And how much debt should the US incur to prevent russia from taking a square inch given that this can go on for another 10, 15 years or more because we aren't going to break russia or prevent them from taking that inch without actually going to war.
 
Callatoroy said:
Moreover, It sure seems like zelensky wants to get a deal done. He seems excited to see trump coming down the road and I'm sure putin would like to get out with something he could claim as a win to bide time until his next attempt.
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Ummm, why would Zelensky need Trump’s assistance to give Putin what he wants? Zelensky doesn’t want to negotiate. He wants more weapons to keep fighting.
 
Callatoroy said:
So the entire war has been conducted under biden's watch but its the gop that's at fault here. Ok, makes sense. And how much debt should the US incur to prevent russia from taking a square inch given that this can go on for another 10, 15 years or more because we aren't going to break russia or prevent them from taking that inch without actually going to war.
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Seriously, do you have difficulty understanding what you are reading? I'm not even being mean, I'm sincerely curious. It will make me treat your posts entirely differently if I know that you're struggling with reading comprehension. You consistently tell me and others that we are making arguments that we aren't making, and it makes me wonder if you are just having a tough time understanding. I'm a terrible writer, and even worse with grammar, so it's entirely plausible that it's on me for not being clearer.

I said it's the GOP's fault that we have an incoming administration that Russia knows that it can count on to force a ceasefire and territory cessation. That is absolutely the GOP's fault. What's not the GOP's fault, and what I already acknowledged was a major policy failure by the current administration in my opinion, is that we haven't let Ukraine strike into Russia before now. Those two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.

Why do you think that Ukraine should be forced to cede any of its sovereign territory to Russia? And why do you think that the United States spending money to defend Ukraine is some unacceptable prospect? Something like 93% of the aid that we have been providing to Ukraine has gone straight into the coffers of AMERICAN weapons manufacturers- **which is exactly where it should go!**
 
CFordUNC said:
Seriously, do you have difficulty understanding what you are reading? I'm not even being mean, I'm sincerely curious. It will make me treat your posts entirely differently if I know that you're struggling with reading comprehension. You consistently tell me and others that we are making arguments that we aren't making, and it makes me wonder if you are just having a tough time understanding. I'm a terrible writer, and even worse with grammar, so it's entirely plausible that it's on me for not being clearer.

I said it's the GOP's fault that we have an incoming administration that Russia knows that it can count on to force a ceasefire and territory cessation. That is absolutely the GOP's fault. What's not the GOP's fault, and what I already acknowledged was a major policy failure by the current administration in my opinion, is that we haven't let Ukraine strike into Russia before now. Those two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.

Why do you think that Ukraine should be forced to cede any of its sovereign territory to Russia? And why do you think that the United States spending money to defend Ukraine is some unacceptable prospect? Something like 93% of the aid that we have been providing to Ukraine has gone straight into the coffers of AMERICAN weapons manufacturers- **which is exactly where it should go!**
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and I took your comments, "The Republican Party used to be able to be counted upon to tell Russia to fuck all the way off" to mean the gop has been less than eager to continue the aid to ukraine and has threatened to withdraw support. Which many have. And less about trump since he hasn't taken office.

I didn't say ukraine should be forced to cede any of its territory to russia. I do think it is an inevitable outcome because the only way to prevent it is to engage in war with russia and ukraine isn't that hill. We didn't cripple the russian economy. Biden didn't have the political clout to prevent countries from bypassing russian sanctions. Russia can continue their effort for years and years. Eventually ukraine falls because there are limits to european and US resolve. zelensky is pissing his pants for trump to do a deal because he knows that long term that is the only way ukraine stays sovereign and that is tenuous given the teeth of deterrents baked into any deal. I don't see ukraine joining NATO as that is a bridge to far for putin to accept so what else is there to prevent russia from invading after trump leaves office. Reagan would have moved missles into Poland and told putin to fuck off but trump isn't Reagan nor is biden. Funding ukraine in perpetuity isn't the answer. Not sure if the russian population could put enough pressure on putin to pull out if trump were to up the pressure even more than biden just did. How much is enough and how long would it take to get to the point that the russian population revolts? As long as their economy doesn't drastically get any worse than it is I can't see that working in the short term. So I don't feel ukraine should have to cede any territory but they ultimately will.
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BlooVooDoo said:
Ummm, why would Zelensky need Trump’s assistance to give Putin what he wants? Zelensky doesn’t want to negotiate. He wants more weapons to keep fighting.
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Zelensky has already lost some gop congressional support and he knows that will only get worse as the new g'ment takes over and trump doesn't have the appetite for this long term. More weapons are going to be a short term thing and I think he knows that. Trump's mouth has backed him into a corner and he will feel compelled to broker a deal to say I told you so. I don't look for trump's approach to be very strategic past what makes him look good.
 
Callatoroy said:
We didn't cripple the russian economy.
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13.4% forward looking inflation, 21% interest rates, Ruble continuing to slide, Gazprom first operating loss in 25 years, etc.

But sure, Tucker walked into a fully stocked grocery so everything is hunky dory.

They are importing Norks because Putin can no longer find soldiers outside the Moscow/St. Pete area, and drafting from there is political suicide. Russia most certainly can't continue this for 'years and years'.
 
Gmonet said:
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13.4% forward looking inflation, 21% interest rates, Ruble continuing to slide, Gazprom first operating loss in 25 years, etc.

But sure, Tucker walked into a fully stocked grocery so everything is hunky dory.

They are importing Norks because Putin can no longer find soldiers outside the Moscow/St. Pete area, and drafting from there is political suicide. Russia most certainly can't continue this for 'years and years'.
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The oil is still flowing. China and Iran as still standing behind them. Yea, they can continue longer than the resolve from the US lasts.
 
Callatoroy said:
and I took your comments, "The Republican Party used to be able to be counted upon to tell Russia to fuck all the way off" to mean the gop has been less than eager to continue the aid to ukraine and has threatened to withdraw support. Which many have. And less about trump since he hasn't taken office.

I didn't say ukraine should be forced to cede any of its territory to russia. I do think it is an inevitable outcome because the only way to prevent it is to engage in war with russia and ukraine isn't that hill. We didn't cripple the russian economy. Biden didn't have the political clout to prevent countries from bypassing russian sanctions. Russia can continue their effort for years and years. Eventually ukraine falls because there are limits to european and US resolve. zelensky is pissing his pants for trump to do a deal because he knows that long term that is the only way ukraine stays sovereign and that is tenuous given the teeth of deterrents baked into any deal. I don't see ukraine joining NATO as that is a bridge to far for putin to accept so what else is there to prevent russia from invading after trump leaves office. Reagan would have moved missles into Poland and told putin to fuck off but trump isn't Reagan nor is biden. Funding ukraine in perpetuity isn't the answer. Not sure if the russian population could put enough pressure on putin to pull out if trump were to up the pressure even more than biden just did. How much is enough and how long would it take to get to the point that the russian population revolts? As long as their economy doesn't drastically get any worse than it is I can't see that working in the short term. So I don't feel ukraine should have to cede any territory but they ultimately will.
r
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Since this last attack by Russia we have spent about the same amount in the Ukraine as we have spent in day to day operations for our carrier forces over two years.. I think we have probably gotten more for our dollar from the Ukraine.
 
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