Ukraine War | Zelensky seeks NATO guarantees for unoccupied Ukraine for peace

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mynameisbond said:
That isn't going to happen. Trump will appease Putin with Ukraine territory to negotiate an end to the conflict.
Putin gets to claim victory and Trump gets to brag that he accomplished what the previous administration failed to do.
Ukraine gets no reparations for the devastation of its infrastructure and loss of life.
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Trump will definitely pull support and claim he brokered a deal to end the war. It remains to be seen if Ukraine stops fighting and agrees to those terms, however. They may decide to continue the war and try to beef up support from the EU. It's hard for me to imagine them agreeing to just giving Russia part of their territory and ending the war knowing full well that Putin will just build up in the newly acquired territory and stage another invasion from there in the future. Of course Trump being the complete piece of shit he is will act like it's all Ukraine's fault they didn't accept his Putin loving terms.
 
After reading this I honestly don't know where I fall on this latest escalation by Biden.


Its trump's nature to want to broker a deal because he isn't a war monger and more likely his ego will push him to take the chamberlain approach of ceding some territory because he boasted of ending the war and he wants to look like the hero.

I am questioning biden's motivation or rationale given his 2 month window. Why do it now?
 
Callatoroy said:
After reading this I honestly don't know where I fall on this latest escalation by Biden.


Its trump's nature to want to broker a deal because he isn't a war monger and more likely his ego will push him to take the chamberlain approach of ceding some territory because he boasted of ending the war and he wants to look like the hero.

I am questioning biden's motivation or rationale given his 2 month window. Why do it now?
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Why do it now? As opposed to 6 months ago? Because doing it before the election would likely have played into Trump’s hands. If you mean why not do it as soon as the polls closed on Election Day, I think that’s a fair question. Why do it at all is a no-brainer. Because Trump has campaigned on “ending” the conflict and undermining NATO. That’s unacceptable to anyone who isn’t a Russian stooge. Even if Trump is insistent on bending the knee, he would be in a stronger position with Ukraine already have been given more leeway in its own defense.
 
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Callatoroy said:
After reading this I honestly don't know where I fall on this latest escalation by Biden.


Its trump's nature to want to broker a deal because he isn't a war monger and more likely his ego will push him to take the chamberlain approach of ceding some territory because he boasted of ending the war and he wants to look like the hero.

I am questioning biden's motivation or rationale given his 2 month window. Why do it now?
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Because it should have been done 18+ months ago. It was always, IMO, a policy failure to restrict Ukraine from striking into Russian territory. It never made sense that it was fine for Russia to target and massacre civilians but Ukraine was supposed to not retaliate in kind. If we didn't want them to use our weaponry a certain way, then we shouldn't have provided it.

One of the primary reasons that I no longer identify with the Republican Party is because its led by someone who has convinced the Republican base that we should make concessions to foreign thugs like Putin, and that by ceding sovereign Ukrainian territory, we are "making the best deals". Russia is not entitled to one square fucking inch of Ukrainian territory. Not one square inch. Every single person in Moscow should be dead before Ukraine is forced to cede a square inch of their country. The Republican Party used to be able to be counted upon to tell Russia to fuck all the way off. Now, the GOP grovels at the feet of an authoritarian tyrant who would turn the entirety of the United States into a grease stain on the map if he could get away with it.
 
Imagine the outrage from all the R's fake patriots if Biden made a deal with Russia that ceded any Ukrainian territory to Russia. And also, how can anyone compete with these double standards? Makes me sick. Fucking sick to my stomach.
 
Enigma94 said:
Trump will definitely pull support and claim he brokered a deal to end the war. It remains to be seen if Ukraine stops fighting and agrees to those terms, however. They may decide to continue the war and try to beef up support from the EU. It's hard for me to imagine them agreeing to just giving Russia part of their territory and ending the war knowing full well that Putin will just build up in the newly acquired territory and stage another invasion from there in the future. Of course Trump being the complete piece of shit he is will act like it's all Ukraine's fault they didn't accept his Putin loving terms.
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I'm not sure its a given that Putin will reinvade. He hasn't reinvaded Georgia. And don't forget that Russia has really been hurt by this war with casualties and economically. I doubt they will be eager to start another war for a decade or two.

A negotiation where Ukraine loses Russian majority provinces and Ukraine is a non-nato state with guarantees for democracy could work. It wouldn't be all that great for Ukraine to lose territory and it wouldn't be all that great for Russia to have a Western leaning Ukraine as a neighbor but considering the punishment that both countries have taken, it might be a sustainable peace.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I'm not sure its a given that Putin will reinvade. He hasn't reinvaded Georgia. And don't forget that Russia has really been hurt by this war with casualties and economically. I doubt they will be eager to start another war for a decade or two.

A negotiation where Ukraine loses Russian majority provinces and Ukraine is a non-nato state with guarantees for democracy could work. It wouldn't be all that great for Ukraine to lose territory and it wouldn't be all that great for Russia to have a Western leaning Ukraine as a neighbor but considering the punishment that both countries have taken, it might be a sustainable peace.
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I mean you're stupid so I'm not surprised you believe Putin will just stop where he is today.
 
meanwhile, the Orcs continue to clear Olgovska forest of Ukrainians. Rumors of UA counter attacks, but not holding.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
His incentive to stop is not destroying his army. He had less incentive to stop in Georgia, but he did it anyway.
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I think it depends on what he wants to accomplish. Georgia was small potatoes. Russia got some territory it could set up as vassal states and purge of non-Russians. With Ukraine it seems the initial plan was to take the whole country. It has a great deal of strategic, economic and cultural value. At this point he might settle for lands taken, NATO recognition of those areas as an independent state or an official part of Russia, and a guarantee that Ukraine would never be admitted to NATO. That’s a hell of a lot to give up for a country we promised to protect.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
I think it depends on what he wants to accomplish. Georgia was small potatoes. Russia got some territory it could set up as vassal states and purge of non-Russians. With Ukraine it seems the initial plan was to take the whole country. It has a great deal of strategic, economic and cultural value. At this point he might settle for lands taken, NATO recognition of those areas as an independent state or an official part of Russia, and a guarantee that Ukraine would never be admitted to NATO. That’s a hell of a lot to give up for a country we promised to protect.
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I'm not sure if Georgia would agree that it was small potatoes. Russia now has de facto control over about a fifth of their former territory.

It might be a hell of a lot to give up, but my point is that an agreement like that would mean Russia would stop. Short of NATO putting boots on the ground, All the other alternatives sound quite a bit worse.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
I'm not sure if Georgia would agree that it was small potatoes. Russia now has de facto control over about a fifth of their former territory.

It might be a hell of a lot to give up, but my point is that an agreement like that would mean Russia would stop. Short of NATO putting boots on the ground, All the other alternatives sound quite a bit worse.
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It was small potatoes for Putin. I think he got what he wanted by having European leaders involved in the settlement. It sent a message to former Soviet republics.
 
gtyellowjacket said:
It might be a hell of a lot to give up, but my point is that an agreement like that would mean Russia would stop. Short of NATO putting boots on the ground, All the other alternatives sound quite a bit worse.
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Patrick Henry would disagree. As long as the people of Ukraine want to resist, we should give them the aid necessary to do so. We asked them to give up the third largest nuclear arsenal on the planet in exchange for a promise of protection. What message do you think that sends to our allies and would-be allies? What message does it send to China? If we’re going to fold against a pathetically weakened Russia, China might take Taiwan and the Philippines and expect us to pay for their expenses.
 
BlooVooDoo said:
Patrick Henry would disagree. As long as the people of Ukraine want to resist, we should give them the aid necessary to do so. We asked them to give up the third largest nuclear arsenal on the planet in exchange for a promise of protection. What message do you think that sends to our allies and would-be allies? What message does it send to China? If we’re going to fold against a pathetically weakened Russia, China might take Taiwan and the Philippines and expect us to pay for their expenses.
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I would be okay with that, especially if we can reduce our defense spending based on the results of this war. It seems like we've crippled our biggest enemy for tens of billions of dollars instead of the trillions we spend.

I'm just not sure how much longer Ukraine wants to resist even if we continue to give them arms. They've taken an awful lot of casualties too. I'm definitely not okay with putting NATO boots on the ground to help them.
 
This looks pretty serious, folks.

There's absolutely no reason to watch the Flynn video.

 
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